08-08-2002 15:26									#31
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I'm laughing too, but that's because I'm listening to a funny song

	08-08-2002 15:46									#32
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One of these threads already? We ain't seen nothin' yet!

	08-08-2002 17:33									#33
	Put an end to popups!

I see no difference in a game like this between political parties and partys described as good, like Builder vs Warmonger. In the end they are both the same thing. A group of people that share an ideology in how to best play the game and thus band together to get their ideas promoted.

The political party system we have running right now has led to a ton of fun RP and in the end is about how we think the game should be played.

If we ban political parties we should band any form of organized alliances. But then we all know that is impossible. Folks I honestly feel this is even silly to try.

E.L. Crisler
Fundamentalist Faction

	08-08-2002 18:30									#34
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Tass,

I can definately see where you are comming from. However, I do not think that the parties are the root of the current problems in the C3DG. In fact, up until the recent post from the DIA, it had been quite silent for quite some time.

Here there are many more things to discuss that a simple builder vs warmonger as well. I do not think that this will be as easy to boil down into a two party system. The game itself has more options available, and a more complex political system that will allow for more parties.

That said. The highlight of the C3DG so far has been the non-political groups. They removed the us vs them mentality that was beginning to accumulate, and focused everyone on the issues at hand.

	08-08-2002 19:59									#35
	Got spare money?

Look at the SP game, it is a battle of ideology and 7 persons made their faction to materialize their utopia. The political parties share different views of society and, like the faction in the SP game, founded political parties to materialize their point of view in the game. And like said some people here, the + of a demo game is debates and politic and I think political parties are part of this fun. The main problem Tass, it is the choice between participative democracy or a representative one. But if we ban political parties and organizations, we aren't a democracy anymore since we breaking the fundamental right of gathering ... And the political parties will continue to make their business in the shadow (PM), so leave them official, it will make things easier.
Concerning the alliances made, most of the parties are sharing the same point of view for the beginning of the game (Demo - planned) but when the game will be more advanced and as soon as we have new SE choices, you can be sure that many coalitions will break up.

	08-08-2002 20:50									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

In priciple, in a dem game, nothing political, especially the ability to congregate in whatever form one wishes, should be banned. How big is the CFC game? Last I heard, they are not that big, and to a certain extent, I fear they have a more dedicated group than apolyton- I mean, Apolyton as a site included games, such as SMAC, that are related but are not civ- does civfanatics have a AC section? or one for CtP? A site like Apolyton has a more varied populace, so I don't think we can or should infere that certain philosophical decisions, like party baning, wil work in Apoly if they worked in civfanatics.

Also, AC is different enough from Civ3 and civ2 to add many interesting facets- I mean, fooling with the Social engineering screen is nothing like any aspect of Civ3, and let not get started on unit dfesign wrkshop, or dealing with Planet- what if we have a rgoup that want so go nuts with Boreholes? There is certainly a need of some type of environmental group in this game- should it just 'propose', like the guilds in the cvi3dem game, or advocate, like a party?

don't ban parties: it is both counter to democracy in principle, and won't stop interest group or personal politics, perhaps just channel them into the personal realm, which would be no good.

	08-08-2002 22:33									#37
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Let's get a political party that is against political parties
Vote #6 for banning With a big Grin

	08-08-2002 22:48									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

-Veto to the banning -

And yes, I want to keep parties, this is much more fun. If we see a two party game, or that parties are becoming boring, then people will either leave the game, either try to do something to change the things. (Ie declaring independance and take control of some bases, thus the game would be a multiplayer demo game or something...) But maybe its just because Im french ??

	08-08-2002 22:50									#39
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Emvepe The only communism I'm familiar with is leninism and marxism and I'm not interested in learning more. Back on topic: I eat socks. I like eating socks. MMM yummy socks. Also I'd join the civ3 games but I don't have civ3. Also I know your just going to type 'BUT ITS ALL POLITICS YOU DONT NEED CIV3 YADA YADYADAYA'. I don't care. I have AC so I'm going to participate in this game, if I had civ3 I'd gladly participate in that as well. Got socks?

You should really go to the Off Topic Forum. You would really fit in quite nicely with some of them



As the first Independent minded candidate, i would welcome less emphasis on party formation. It might be better to stick with just a few parties and let the members fight it out to see where the direction of that party goes. The way it is now everyone seems to be forming a party.


Lets start out with two or three parties, let the members decide on what the party will stand for and if during the course of the game a group decides that their party does not live up to the ideals that they believe in they can then start a splinter party. But this way of a party for every issue is just a little crazy. Of course that just may be the American in me

	08-08-2002 22:58									#40
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After reading Gepap, something came to mind. Maybe AC isnt exactly the best medium for this type of excercise. I mean the PKs are possibly the only faction where parties would even play a role in government. It the early days of a colonial society on a far away planet with little initial resources, people are gonna need to cooperate much more closely.

My suggestion is to start out with two parties(maybe three) and as time passes a little, we could gradually start breaking into smaller parties. When different SE choices become availiable different people then can go about creating their own parties. Right now in the beginning we are a frontier society. Hell we are still on the Unity for heavens sake and and we have parties lined up. Just my 2 cents.

	08-08-2002 23:06									#41
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Why do we want to regulate the parties. the only bother you have is there threads. which you do not have to read. and when the game begins we can put it in the constitution that on certain threads not party-post maybe be post. to counter parties spamming the threads.

	08-08-2002 23:12									#42
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Well, the parties seem to be in the process of evolving into three coalitions, based around Green Builder, FM Builder, and Warmonger.

I agree with those who have posted above that banning parties just isn't consistent with a democracy. Though I agree that parties can encourage bickering and factionalism, they don't have to. It's simply a choice of the individuals in the parties whether to work together or argue. And some argument is legitimate disagreement.

As a member of the EDP, I've tried to encourage less of an "Us vs. Them" attitude in the parties. How it will eventually develop remains to be seen, but in my mind we should give things a chance to develop, and then if parties are a problem we can always rethink them.

	08-08-2002 23:39									#43
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Juliennew Look at the SP game, it is a battle of ideology and 7 persons made their faction to materialize their utopia. The political parties share different views of society and, like the faction in the SP game, founded political parties to materialize their point of view in the game. And like said some people here, the + of a demo game is debates and politic and I think political parties are part of this fun. The main problem Tass, it is the choice between participative democracy or a representative one. But if we ban political parties and organizations, we aren't a democracy anymore since we breaking the fundamental right of gathering ... And the political parties will continue to make their business in the shadow (PM), so leave them official, it will make things easier. Concerning the alliances made, most of the parties are sharing the same point of view for the beginning of the game (Demo - planned) but when the game will be more advanced and as soon as we have new SE choices, you can be sure that many coalitions will break up.

i dunno.....its just, the civ3 demo game really disappointed me. first it was the game, and then the parties formed, and as time passed they merged, and then we have a two party system ,and those parties started to bicker, and then fight each other, and then inflated egos in those parties fought people of other parties, and......

The SMAC Demo Game is something I was really excited for. SMAC is one of my favorite games, and a demo game just sounded good. But, I think you can understand my worry. I just came from a demo game thats, well, not having fun with parties. And I just dont want that same mistake to be repeated here.

Green people can easily relate. They dont want the mistake of industrial earth to be repeated on planet But even if we dont ban parties, i really think we need to do something about the politics they present. Let us promise to planet that we will not repeat the tragedy of Civ3!!!

(Gaian quote altered, if you couldnt see )

	09-08-2002 00:23									#44
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I agree with Tassadar. I for one will never allow this SMAC game to revert to a two-party system as in Civ3!

	09-08-2002 00:38									#45
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: My suggestion is to start out with two parties(maybe three) and as time passes a little, we could gradually start breaking into smaller parties. When different SE choices become availiable different people then can go about creating their own parties.

Good idea

	09-08-2002 01:51									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Look, I don't see how parties have made civ3dem any less fun- all they were big for was a few elections- then everyone who FEARS THEY MIGHT(MIGHT) BECOME A PROBLEM began making big issues about them_ I chalange any anti-party person to relate a single 'horror' story from civ3dem.... a single one that has anyhting to do with parties as parties, and not about, lets say, individuals who don't like each other. I don't know of ONE single such thing. Many people are simply utterly apolitical, and they see a dem game not as an excersise on politics, sincevthey could not care less about politics, and more as a big, giant group game where game strategy is key. So, for those that hate parties in principal because they are political- you will have to take other steps to remove politics from the game, the dem. game.

	09-08-2002 02:20									#47
	Tired of ads?

I think we should just roleplay. If we want Parties, lets create parties, if someone finds parties are making the game boring, then then can lead a campaign for dissolutions of parties, etc..

Maybe its just for me, but a demo game is a RPG

	09-08-2002 02:25									#48
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I could have said it better Pandemoniak (i really couldnt have said it better because I am typing here )

	09-08-2002 02:37									#49
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DBTS, your post sounds ... not clear. Did you mistyped anythin ?

quote: I could have said it better Pandemoniak (i really couldnt have said it better because I am typing here)

	09-08-2002 02:41									#50
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I agree with what you say the part between '(*)' was a Stupid joke that probebly only my dutch friends understand but i agree with what you said about role-playing

	09-08-2002 02:45									#51
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Oh. It sounds more clear now. Im confused.
Duh.

	09-08-2002 03:21									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Oh. It sounds more clear now. Im confused. Duh.

im confused too.politics isnt good.civ3 dem showed politics. i dont like that. will it happen here?if so, i vote yes.if not, i vote no.

can someone answer me please?!

	09-08-2002 03:24									#53
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Though I know the engine of History, I cannot presient future.

Pandemoniak,
in, For I have walked with the Drones

	09-08-2002 03:35									#54
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let`s make it simple CIV3 isnt SMAC and there are other people involved maybe it matter maybe it doesnt

	09-08-2002 03:36									#55
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A radical suggestion indeed, and I am not for it.

SMAC is something way different then Civ3 (which is why I have played AC many, many times more then Civ3, but that's another thread). A Civ3 Demo game and an AC Demo game just can't be compared. In AC, the social engineering concept brings an entirely new dimension to things.
We all have a common goal, winning the game, but in AC, with the mixture of ideals and politics, there are very several, some different, some more alike, ways to reach victory. Some might prefer striving for a diplomatic victory, some for conquest, some might see war as a necessity, some it as a burden. And since the Demo game has so many different people, with different playstyles and ideas, it is obvious that to drive their own way of doing things they'll seek others who think like them and try to reach their goals.
If they are a majority and ideology prevails, then democracy is happening.

I will reconsider participating in the Democracy game if parties are banned.

Also, I'm all for having discussion threads were ideas are handled. Atrocities and their use, SE politics, the like.

	09-08-2002 03:41									#56
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quote: I will reconsider participating in the Democracy game if parties are banned

Well, if we have parties- they should be SMACish- I.E. Social Engineering Parties... Supporting different paths of social engineering

	09-08-2002 03:51									#57
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i dont want two parties.but if there are like three four and five then its good.then politics is little and fun is big!

	09-08-2002 04:04									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Well, if we have parties- they should be SMACish- I.E. Social Engineering Parties... Supporting different paths of social engineering

Well that's what LSD (and CDC) does. Demo/Green(FM)/Knowledge/Cybernetic(Eudaimonia).

	10-08-2002 06:43									#59
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An important part of democracy is freedom of association, right?

I probably prefer the system from the Civ2 game, where parties exist only for roleplay purposes, but with the direction this game has taken so far, I support parties.

	30-01-2003 12:25									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt It's a fair call, Tass Something similar that seems to have worked in the Civ3 game was the establishment of the War Academy and Thinker's Guild. The Thinker's Guild was supposedly where you went to discuss the philosophy of actions in the game - you weren't members of a party, merely a small group that chatted there, normally about hopw to expand your alcohol stash. The War Academy threads were on various strategic decisions/plans made and helped significantly in many cases. These groups had no loyalties but to thoughtful exchange, and they did not degenerate.

Word...