16-08-2002 05:08									#31
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Hmm, I starting to wonder if the US should cut a deal with Saddam. In exchange for a free flow of oil, end support for anti-US terrorists, and to never attack US troops with WoMD, we'll leave him alone to do whatever he likes. You know, seeing as how illegal and immoral it would be to end a regime of a dictator.

	16-08-2002 05:23									#32
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If Europe becomes more and more anti-american, then Americans themselves will close their shell, and start being Anti-Europeen. The fact is, we can do whatever we like, and we don't *really* need an internation coalition. As the europeans stop supporting American foreign policy, the Americans will start doing it alone. And perhaps the next time the Europeens have a problem, we won't join in.

	16-08-2002 07:23									#33
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What "rude" interventions? The Europeans practically begged us to intervene in Somalia, Bosnia, and Kosovo. Is it the bombing of the factory in the Sudan? Has everyone forgotten that this incident was in retaliation for the first attempt to bring down the World Trade Centers?

	16-08-2002 08:22									#34
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Uh, no it wasn't Dr Strangelove. You have your facts mixed up.

Examples of US Imperialism include repeated interventions in Guatemala, Greece, Chille, Nicaragua, Venezuala, Iran, Panama, Indochina, Lebananon, Cuba, Angola, Bolivia, Saudi Arabia, Philippines, Hati, Zaire, and many more. Many agressors claim their aggression is 'retalitation' - the US is no different. The fact is that invading Iraq has nothing to do with 'defending America' - Iraq is no threat to the world's strongest military. Even it's neighbors don't feel threatened by him and oppose an invasion. And there's no evidence that Iraq has sponsored terrorism against the US for years. Al-Qaeda hates Sadaam - he's too tolerant for them.

BTW, it's not just Europe which is becoming anti-american, it's most of the world. Europe's criticism is largely hypocritical since the US has just inhereted their tradition of mass slaughter & imperialism. And when US Imperialism suits their needs Europe has no problem backing it.

	16-08-2002 08:29									#35
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Ned, what would those policies be? Shutting off family planning money? Trying to get out of the international court agreement which Clinton signed?

Quite frankly, Gore has made very few statements whatsoever, and has ben critizized for that by his fellow democrats.

AFAIK, the only thing Gore is on record supporting was the war effort in afganistan... and considering the sentiments post 9/11, it would have been poliical suicide not to agree...

Of course, I could be wrong...

	16-08-2002 09:16									#36
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Joe, only a fool would say that we are on par with Europe so far in slaughter and imperialism. Or at least we're less direct. =) That doesn't make it right, of course, but I don't think the war on Sadaam is all that bad anyway. Europe is just being a bunch of hippies to go after us about that. I dunno about the other stuff we do.

The thing I find most disturbing is that European business that councils other businesses on how to deal with American corporations. I want to know what that's all about.

	16-08-2002 09:43									#37
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quote: Examples of US Imperialism include repeated interventions in Guatemala, Greece, Chille, Nicaragua, Venezuala, Iran, Panama, Indochina, Lebananon, Cuba, Angola, Bolivia, Saudi Arabia, Philippines, Hati, Zaire, and many more.

He's right you know. We've been in it for our own interest more than most Americans realize. We hardly ever do something just because it is good. We usually want something out of it, or get something out of it.

	16-08-2002 09:46									#38
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So?

	16-08-2002 09:48									#39
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What do you mean so?

So So!

If you **** up other countries just because you feel like it, everyone else is gonna hate you. Anyone that's played Civ should know that at the very least.

	16-08-2002 09:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What do you mean so?

You act like a country persueing its own interest is a bad thing. You can certainly argue weather or not an action actually is in our interest to do but I fail to see how actively persuing your interests is a bad thing.

And let's not bring Civ into this. I like the conquest victory, too much.

	16-08-2002 09:57									#41
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Well who was arguing if it was good or bad? People weren't getting how people could hate the US. If by persuing your interests you step on everyone else, they hate you.

And yes, actively persuing your interest, if it leads to people hating you down the line is a very very bad thing.

	16-08-2002 10:13									#42
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quote: The fact is that invading Iraq has nothing to do with 'defending America' - Iraq is no threat to the world's strongest military.

Excuse me!?
Sadaam has weapons of mass destruction and thats a threat to anybody and everybody. Taking him out is in everyway "protecting America". The fact that he has weapons of mass destruction isnt really the only scary part, but he openly hates America and is a totalitarian dictator in charge of weapons of mass destruction. Thats a dangerous combonation and we need to take him out before his WoMD programs mature. Saying that he is no threat to us is complete and total bullshit. Saying any other primary reason why we want to take him out is complete and utter horseshit. Simple as that.

Kman

	16-08-2002 10:17									#43
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quote: Sadaam has weapons of mass destruction and thats a threat to anybody and everybody

So everyone that has WMD is a threat to anybody and everybody? Oh oh, better revolt against our government then.

quote: but he openly hates America and is a totalitarian dictator in charge of weapons of mass destruction.

The Soviet Union openly hated America and were in charge of WMD, and I don't remember them using them against us.

--

I'll say it... he is NO threat to us .

	16-08-2002 10:19									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Examples of US Imperialism include repeated interventions in Guatemala, Greece, Chille, Nicaragua, Venezuala, Iran, Panama, Indochina, Lebananon, Cuba, Angola, Bolivia, Saudi Arabia, Philippines, Hati, Zaire, and many more. He's right you know. We've been in it for our own interest more than most Americans realize. We hardly ever do something just because it is good. We usually want something out of it, or get something out of it.

we hardly do anything just because its good? Nearly everytime there is a major natrual disaster, which is the first nation whos government is not only the first to send aid, but whos private citizens send aid too. Nearly every year there are floods somewhere in Latin America and our school district collects money, clothes, toys, etc to send to those in distress. Same thing for that major earthquake in turkey a couple of years ago. Same thing for Afghanistan. Bush gave millions to Africa for AIDS research. Same thing for almost everthing. Thats not to say we dont do things in our own interest - we do, and aften do them at the expense of others, but the US is probably one of the most selfless nations in the world. I wouldnt be surprised if there is a statistic that shows the US has given more aid to more nations thatn any other.

Kman

	16-08-2002 10:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Ned, what would those policies be? Shutting off family planning money? Trying to get out of the international court agreement which Clinton signed? Quite frankly, Gore has made very few statements whatsoever, and has ben critizized for that by his fellow democrats. AFAIK, the only thing Gore is on record supporting was the war effort in afganistan... and considering the sentiments post 9/11, it would have been poliical suicide not to agree... Of course, I could be wrong...

I think Gore is being very cagey about Iraq. He has said nothing yet because Bush hasnt't declare yet what he intends to do. He can't come out and say he is against the use of ground forces, because Bush may decide not to use ground forces and simply use Air Power and rebellions by the Kurds et al. to win, just as we did in Afganistan.

Bush has said that he will consult Congress and our allies before making any final decisions. Could Gore advocate something different?

	16-08-2002 10:22									#46
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I fail to see how the events of 9/11 give the U.S a blanket moral high ground on everything

Unlike many people here - i actually like America! However, that doesn't give them the right to do whatever they please, whenever they please.

How can Aussies be expected to gladly join the fight against Iraq, when Australia military command can expect to be excluded from command decisions while our farmers get screwed A G A I N !! by the U.S.?

Australians don't care how big the U.S. is - we still think that these things are a two-way street!

It's good to see the U.S. united, but blindly following Bush regardless of the direction is stupidity You see, we, and much of the rest of the world have a vested interest in U.S.A's success, so GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER!!!

	16-08-2002 10:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Sadaam has weapons of mass destruction and thats a threat to anybody and everybody So everyone that has WMD is a threat to anybody and everybody? Oh oh, better revolt against our government then. quote: but he openly hates America and is a totalitarian dictator in charge of weapons of mass destruction. The Soviet Union openly hated America and were in charge of WMD, and I don't remember them using them against us. -- I'll say it... he is NO threat to us .

You say!

Well I guess you are entitled to your opinion. However, if he suddenly decides to land one on our troops in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, or fries the city of Tel Aviv, would you care? I doubt it - for after all, in the words of your hero OBL, neither we nor they had a right to be there in the first place, we and they are defiling muslim land.

	16-08-2002 10:25									#48
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quote: which is the first nation whos government is not only the first to send aid, but whos private citizens send aid too.

quote: I wouldnt be surprised if there is a statistic that shows the US has given more aid to more nations thatn any other.

Seems you have a too high opinion of our country. We aren't the first to send aid usually, and a pitiful amount of our budget is on foreign aid... less than 1% in fact. While many European states send close to 5% of their budget to foreign aid. We should be sending a whole lot more. We like to talk a big game, but we don't do anything really about it.

	16-08-2002 10:25									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Sadaam has weapons of mass destruction and thats a threat to anybody and everybody So everyone that has WMD is a threat to anybody and everybody? Oh oh, better revolt against our government then. quote: but he openly hates America and is a totalitarian dictator in charge of weapons of mass destruction. The Soviet Union openly hated America and were in charge of WMD, and I don't remember them using them against us. -- I'll say it... he is NO threat to us .

Fool. Just because he has weapons of mass destruction doesnt means he would be foolish enough to use them against the US - due to MAD [mutual assured destruction]. But he could easily use WoMD as a 'shield', threating to use them if he is attacked while he invades Kuwait again, or invades Israel. Bt whos not to say he is not irrational enough to use them directly against the US? The SU was not led by a single man filled with hate against Americans, instead they had many protocols like the US against lunching nukes and stuff. Sadaam Husein in a fit of rage could easily give the word to use them, and since he has total control, there are no fail safes. Also, who is to say he wouldnt share the knowlege or materials with terrorists? That would be an even bigger threat. That is why a rigeme change is needed. Do you think America as so hawkish as to just go to war for no good god damn reason? The ghosts of Veitnam are with us still, and guide us not to be foolish.

Kman

	16-08-2002 10:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: which is the first nation whos government is not only the first to send aid, but whos private citizens send aid too. quote: I wouldnt be surprised if there is a statistic that shows the US has given more aid to more nations thatn any other. Seems you have a too high opinion of our country. We aren't the first to send aid usually, and a pitiful amount of our budget is on foreign aid... less than 1% in fact. While many European states send close to 5% of their budget to foreign aid. We should be sending a whole lot more. We like to talk a big game, but we don't do anything really about it.

err, Im quite sure that 1% (it is about 1% IIRC)of our budget is about as much as 5% of many European budgets, not to mention the massive amounts given from private charities and organizations. In total this must easily exceed the amount given by any other nation. And as a matter of fact, I am quite critical of the US, just I think foreign critics are grossely misinformed or just plain ignorant.

Kman

	17-08-2002 02:36									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Do you think America as so hawkish as to just go to war for no good god damn reason?

No, this war is about oil.

	17-08-2002 03:24									#52
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Joe, Why do you say this is about oil? Saddam is quite willing to sell oil. If he stopped selling oil, his own economy would be devestated.

What you said doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Could you please expand your statement and explain your thinking.

	17-08-2002 04:02									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Joe, Why do you say this is about oil? Saddam is quite willing to sell oil. If he stopped selling oil, his own economy would be devestated. What you said doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Could you please expand your statement and explain your thinking.

I second ned's request. He sells us oil now, and if he refused in the future, we could easily go elsewhere, like we are trying to do now anyway.

	17-08-2002 05:36									#54
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Ned: And you wonder why you are a laughing stock on this forum. Can you say Bob Dornan?

quote: But he could easily use WoMD as a 'shield', threating to use them if he is attacked while he invades Kuwait again, or invades Israel.

You mean like Israel used against the Arabs? Like Russia used to prevent us from intervening in Afghanistan? Please. That whole 'shield' thing has never worked because no one wants to be the one to use a nuke.

quote: Do you think America as so hawkish as to just go to war for no good god damn reason?

Actually yes. We have gone to war over no 'God damn reason' before. Grenada mean anything to you?

quote: rr, Im quite sure that 1% (it is about 1% IIRC)of our budget is about as much as 5% of many European budgets

So you are saying the American government is the most charitable because we give the most money in total dollars? Percentages of budget is the ONLY thing that means jack.

Or do you think that the rich man that give 1% of his budget to the poor is more charatible than a middle class man that gives 10% of his budget? Let's get serious here.

quote: I think foreign critics are grossely misinformed or just plain ignorant.

Funny, I think you are grossly misinformed or just plain ignorant .

	17-08-2002 05:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui We have gone to war over no 'God damn reason' before. Grenada mean anything to you?

Was Grenada actually a war?

	17-08-2002 05:52									#56
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Exactly the point. The US would have to think twice about fighting somebody serious. The only thing that's changed since 1983 is that Ronald Reagan's slightly more senile and that the US is now comfortable with attacking third-rate rather than fourth-rate powers...

	17-08-2002 06:41									#57
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But none of the 1st and 2nd rate powers want to fight us.

	17-08-2002 06:50									#58
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Neither does Iraq, and neither did Grenada. That doesn't seem to be important to you...

	17-08-2002 07:42									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ned: And you wonder why you are a laughing stock on this forum. Can you say Bob Dornan?

You know, Imran, that I often see the AO's of this board lapse into personal attacks if their arguments fail them. It looks like you just joined that club.

	17-08-2002 07:56									#60
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I lapse into personal attacks when I can't take my target seriously. It looks like Imran has the same policy...

AO? Please enlighten us...