16-08-2002 08:07									#61
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They have other entertainments.


I know it's in bad taste, I couldn't help it.

	16-08-2002 09:06									#62
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I do wonder if this current US administration actually thinks before it does anything dealing with foreign policy. I thought Clinton's foriegn policy was bad, but Bush is just atrocious! He's a big dumb ox who doesn't give a damn that he's ****ing everything up.

Makes me wish I'd voted for Gore .

	16-08-2002 09:10									#63
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Imran, I thought that you'd be pleased that Bush was finally following the terms of the Rome Statute.

	16-08-2002 09:19									#64
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You can't follow a treaty if you haven't signed it. And just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. FDR was following the Constitution when he decided to pack to SCOTUS... Lincoln was following the Constitution when he suspended habeas corpus.

We have the most short sighted, moronic foriegn policy of any Western nation. If I dare say it, Mugabe might be a better foreign policy US President than Bush, the retarded. One wonders how long it will take to rebuild the bridges that have been burned by this utter imbecile.

	16-08-2002 09:25									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You can't follow a treaty if you haven't signed it. And just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. FDR was following the Constitution when he decided to pack to SCOTUS... Lincoln was following the Constitution when he suspended habeas corpus. We have the most short sighted, moronic foriegn policy of any Western nation. If I dare say it, Mugabe might be a better foreign policy US President than Bush, the retarded. One wonders how long it will take to rebuild the bridges that have been burned by this utter imbecile.

Imran, Of course you have a better plan for defending the United States - even Gore supports Bush.

What is your plan? It is far too easy to criticize and loftily declare your opponent an imbecile. Such talk usually masks a deficiency in alternates. But obviously in this case I am mistaken, right?

	16-08-2002 09:28									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui FDR was following the Constitution when he decided to pack to SCOTUS...

I wasn't aware that the President actually had that power. From what part of the Constitution does he derive it from?

quote: Lincoln was following the Constitution when he suspended habeas corpus.

No, he didn't.

quote: We have the most short sighted, moronic foriegn policy of any Western nation.

It's a continuing trend. The body politic of America doesn't tend to care much about foreign policy.

	16-08-2002 09:35									#67
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quote: I wasn't aware that the President actually had that power. From what part of the Constitution does he derive it from?

The President can appoint Supreme Court Justices. No where in the Constitution does it state a limit on number of judges.

quote: No, he didn't.

Article one, section 9:

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

quote: Imran, Of course you have a better plan for defending the United States - even Gore supports Bush

Of course, because of this crypto-Fascist idea that if you are against the President's policy you are against America.

My plan would not piss off our allies. My plan would be to follow what Colin Powell would do, if he had free reign. You can exempt yourself from the ICC and Kyoto, but there are ways of going about it that don't piss everyone off. There are ways of doing so that make you still seem like the good guy and not the bully. Apparently Bush's father's skill in diplomacy didn't rub off AT ALL on our current Imbecile-in-chief.

	16-08-2002 09:41									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: No, he didn't. Article one, section 9: The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

Lincoln got slapped down by the Courts for that one, IIRC.

	16-08-2002 09:46									#69
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Yeah, AFTER the war when they wanted to feel all high and moral. The Court wanted to say that was 'bad'. But many do disagree with the court. The Constitution is clear on the point. The only disagreement can be when 'cases of rebellion or invasion' is invoked.

And of course we are all know the Courts are always right . Plessy v. Fergusson anyone? How about Sanford v. Scott?

	16-08-2002 09:49									#70
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Go Duyba!

	16-08-2002 10:35									#71
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Imran, Powell is one cool dude. I agree that Bush should rely on him more to achieve his objectives in a pleasing manner. I think the criticism that Bush had been too ham handed in certain cases is valid.

However, I think his overall war plan is right. I don't think Gore will object to Bush's efforts. But he will say that he could have done it in a more polished manner.

	17-08-2002 00:53									#72
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Well that is basically objecting. Gore just does it in a 'more polished manner'. It can make all the difference.

	17-08-2002 01:01									#73
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How bout Gore vs. Board of Election? (or something like that)

	17-08-2002 01:03									#74
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Is this thread still going on? OFITG seems to have based this thread on so much BS.

Let me take care of this before I go:

quote: Yeah, AFTER the war when they wanted to feel all high and moral.

Ex parte Merryman was heard while the Civil War was still going on. I would think that a person going into law would know that much.

	17-08-2002 01:28									#75
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Lincoln didn't get slapped down for Ex Parte Merryman. Taney said he was wrong, but Lincoln just disregarded it. That doesn't sound like getting slapped down to me. The Courts afterwards did slap him down, and the President (Johnson) agreed with the court's decision. That's a slap down.

	17-08-2002 02:26									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I do wonder if this current US administration actually thinks before it does anything dealing with foreign policy. I thought Clinton's foriegn policy was bad, but Bush is just atrocious! He's a big dumb ox who doesn't give a damn that he's ****ing everything up. Makes me wish I'd voted for Gore . We have the most short sighted, moronic foriegn policy of any Western nation. If I dare say it, Mugabe might be a better foreign policy US President than Bush, the retarded. One wonders how long it will take to rebuild the bridges that have been burned by this utter imbecile.

Is this truly you, Imran?
I suppose you are just kidding.

And if not: WHAT happened? I hope all is well?

Get well soon!

	17-08-2002 02:29									#77
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Unilateral foreign policy decisions give him gas, S. Kroeze. He just needs to take some Tums and he'll be OK.

	17-08-2002 05:17									#78
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Kroeze, it is me. I'm disgusted with this administration. His bullshit is really grating on me, and I've basically left the Republican Party (kind of hard to officially leave a party if you don't have a position in it ).

	26-08-2002 03:58									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Kroeze, it is me. I'm disgusted with this administration. His bullshit is really grating on me, and I've basically left the Republican Party (kind of hard to officially leave a party if you don't have a position in it ).

Dear Imran,

Thanks for replying!

I find this still very hard to grasp. I remember you as the most pronounced supporter of G.Bush jr. and the Republican Party on Apolyton. I once visited your website and remember seeing mainly various anti-Clinton cartoons ('Making them serve!" etc.)

It is not my intent to ridicule you, but could you please try to explain in greater detail what made you change your opinion about G.Bush?
Is it just his foreign policy or are there other aspects with which you strongly disagree?
Is R.Reagan still your favourite American president?

I always strongly detested G.Bush and he has more or less turned out as I had expected. I have to admit that his administration handled Afghanistan quite intelligently, far better than I would have thought possible. I have also quite some confidence in C.Powell.

It is a pity, I think, that America has only two political parties. This doesn't give the electorate much choice.
In Holland we have basically three large parties (and several smaller ones), and I dislike ALL of them to some degree.
My guess is you would vote on the VVD, a 'liberal-conservative' party.

Do you still agree with the Supreme Court decision not to allow a recount in Florida?
I hope the prewar voting machines will be replaced next November.

Best wishes!

S.Kroeze

PS: Perhaps you still remember my post after the Supreme Court decision:

Hung be the heaven's with black, yield day to night!
Comets, importing change of times and states....

	26-08-2002 04:29									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I do wonder if this current US administration actually thinks before it does anything dealing with foreign policy. I thought Clinton's foriegn policy was bad, but Bush is just atrocious! He's a big dumb ox who doesn't give a damn that he's ****ing everything up. Makes me wish I'd voted for Gore . We have the most short sighted, moronic foriegn policy of any Western nation. If I dare say it, Mugabe might be a better foreign policy US President than Bush, the retarded. One wonders how long it will take to rebuild the bridges that have been burned by this utter imbecile.

It is a good thing to hear this! One less for those Republicans!

	26-08-2002 04:31									#81
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Yes, Reagan is still my favorite American President, and I disagree with Bush's foreign policy mainly, which will impact our domestic politics in far more serious ways than most Americans realize.

And yes, I still agree with the US Supreme Court that the recount asked for by Gore was flawed and should have been stopped.

	26-08-2002 04:35									#82
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What is it that ticks you off? The not signing every treaty put before us?

	26-08-2002 04:47									#83
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The blatent disregard for any semblance of diplomacy or tact in foriegn policies. The whole attitude that we can do everything ourselves, pissing off even our allies because Bush can only use a hammer to make his points.

	26-08-2002 06:27									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Personally if I were in charge, these requests for immunity would only be prefaced with the serious threat of removing the peacekeepers. It would remove the need for pointless horsetrading. Ned: Under the international law that OFITG seems to hold dear, we had no right to intervene in the Kosovo situation.

I hate to inform you of this, but the US and other NATO countries are in Kosovo now because of UN Resolution 1244. You can find a copy of the resolution at http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm
So I fail to see how the US presence in Kosovo is illegal if it's under UN authority that were in Kosovo in the first place.

Even if you argue that Nato originally Bombed Serbia without UN authorization, According to the article you posted Dino Doc, we had a right to do so without prior UN Security Council authorization as a way to help them repel armed agression and insure humanitarian relief. So was only the peace treaty that required Security council approval, not the actual bombings, and the UN did provide support for the former.

At any rate, regardless of the legitimicy of the bombing by the UN, it was still the right thing as well as the practical thingto do. Every other action to prevent the genocide by the Serbs was attempted, including appeasement by the UN. If the UN was doing it's job instead of downplaying the seriousness of the tragedy taking place in Bosnia and Kosovo, we would have been able to bomb Serbia under UN authorization instead of NATO's. As it was, we undoubtly stopped a great deal of mass murder, rape and untold number of refuges from streaming into other countries (which was destabilizing other countries as well).

	26-08-2002 20:12									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides I hate to inform you of this, but the US and other NATO countries are in Kosovo now because of UN Resolution 1244. You can find a copy of the resolution at http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm So I fail to see how the US presence in Kosovo is illegal if it's under UN authority that were in Kosovo in the first place. Even if you argue that Nato originally Bombed Serbia without UN authorization, According to the article you posted Dino Doc, we had a right to do so without prior UN Security Council authorization as a way to help them repel armed agression and insure humanitarian relief. So was only the peace treaty that required Security council approval, not the actual bombings, and the UN did provide support for the former. At any rate, regardless of the legitimicy of the bombing by the UN, it was still the right thing as well as the practical thingto do. Every other action to prevent the genocide by the Serbs was attempted, including appeasement by the UN. If the UN was doing it's job instead of downplaying the seriousness of the tragedy taking place in Bosnia and Kosovo, we would have been able to bomb Serbia under UN authorization instead of NATO's. As it was, we undoubtly stopped a great deal of mass murder, rape and untold number of refuges from streaming into other countries (which was destabilizing other countries as well).

This argument is quite sound and I wholly agree with it.

Ditto, Iraq.

	26-08-2002 20:21									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides According to the article you posted Dino Doc, we had a right to do so without prior UN Security Council authorization as a way to help them repel armed agression and insure humanitarian relief.

1) Aggression against whom. Serbia was a sovereign country that was fighting a rebellion to its rule in Kosovo. It has never to my knowledge been a recognized right of an ethnic or religious minority to secede within the international community.

2) It was the bombings that made the humanitarian situation on the ground worse than before.

3) As was stated in the article, you're stretching the right of humanitarian intervention way beyond the limits traditionally placed upon it.

	26-08-2002 20:48									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It has never to my knowledge been a recognized right of an ethnic or religious minority to secede within the international community.

DinoDoc, The Versailles Treaty had a lot to do with the right of "self-determination." This basic "right" has often been promoted by the UN, most recently in E. Timor (a Christian enclave in a Muslim country). As well, the action in Kosovo was consistent with paragraph 3 of Chapter I of the UN Charter:

"To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion."

	26-08-2002 21:33									#88
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Just as many Kosovar Albanians fled north into Serbia as into neighboring countries. That should tell you a little something about the character of the "ethnic-cleansing" of Kosovo.

	26-08-2002 22:19									#89
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Just as many Kosovar Albanians fled north into Serbia as into neighboring countries. That should tell you a little something about the character of the "ethnic-cleansing" of Kosovo.

I'm really not too sure what conclusions your exactly drawing from this, even if this is the case (a source would be nice). There was a sysmatic campaign to force Muslims out of Kosovo, not Serbia. If it was possible for a refugee to flee to Serbia but not Albania then I'm sure they would. That doesn't imply that life was good in Serbia, only that it sucked less then being terrorized in Kosovo.

quote: It was the bombings that made the humanitarian situation on the ground worse than before

only because the bombings pissed the Serbs off, not because really did much in terms of damage. If you don't believe me, try reading http://shr.aaas.org/kosovo/policyorpanic/toc.html

	26-08-2002 22:22									#90
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There is little evidence of an organized terror campaign to drive the Albanians from Kosovo. There is eveidence that irregulars did some of this, however the vast majority of people who fled did so because they were terrified of the bombing, at least according to the refugees themselves at the time.