29-08-2002 06:41									#31
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Last screenshot, I promise

This is the world map from 1715, with the Palace/FP circled in Blue and Red, respectively, and New Alexandria circled in white. I'm waaaaaay over the OCN, and yet I managed to get roughly 50% shield waste (10 wasted out of 21) and roughly 67% commerce corruption (13 commerce with 24 lost to corruption).

Attachment: newalexandriaii.jpg
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	29-08-2002 08:04									#32
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THAT I get... good placement of the FP for the long-term shape of empire, and meaningful benefits as you had spread to the west.

Maybe I just assumed many of these types of placements were with the FP next door to the Palace...

Glad to see you experimenting with slowmovers; in the long run I'll still take a Knight-level UU, but Legions are the red tide.

	29-08-2002 20:48									#33
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I doubt I would ever build the FP directly next to my capitol. That's too close for me. I'm generally like you - I want an optimal FP site and I'll use a leader to rush it. The Egyptian game, along with the GoUP and many others I've played, went that way.

The Roman game was a good example, however, of when an alternate approach is actually preferable.

-Arrian

ps What do you think of the Egyptian game? Btw, I checked it out: Greece was NOT in anarchy. Their declaration of war was not due to switching gov'ts and running out of cash. Nope, I think the AI just decided "right, I'm getting my ass kicked here, let's go out in a blaze of glory. Charge!"

	29-08-2002 21:07									#34
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Very cool game... I have NO idea how AI suicide works, but that is sure as hell what Alex did.

Cavs and Rifles versus your Tanks and Infantry?

"Thank you sir, may I have another!"

	30-08-2002 10:15									#35
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Has there been any discussion of how the AI places its FP? I can't recall ever even seeing one in a city I've investigated. Have people been able to succesfully target an FP city to cripple AI civs?

	30-08-2002 11:04									#36
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The AI always builds a FP. The problem is that it builds it as soon as it becomes available, so it usually ends up 2-3 cities away from his capital.

Because of the early AI FP build, and since the AI never relocates its palace, human empires with a good FP placement are much more efficient than AI empires.

	30-08-2002 18:08									#37
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********* WARNING, BANANA SPOILER BELOW ***********

What about an archipelago map (i.e. Banana Island) ? Is it better to put the palace at one end of an island and the FP at the other end or the palace and FP on different islands? For those who have played, what was your strategy on this one?

--Kon--

Last edited by Konquest02 on 30-08-2002 at 23:27

	30-08-2002 21:36									#38
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**** Warning - Banana Isle Spoiler Below ****



As with all advice, it is heavily game dependent. On Banana Isle, I built my FP on the very northeast corner of the southern plains / desert area - this was roughly the "center" of my home Isle (including the mini isle). My intention weas to relocate my Palace to another island after conquest. But I never did.

The scarcity of land meant that seriously surpassing the OCN was harder to do; the general "lateness" with which I think most people conducted invasions (how many true warmongers are there like Theseus who conducted ancient age invasions with swords on of galleys - all without the GL? ) and therefore the possiblity to more easily generate WTLKDs and corruption-fighting city improvements; and the corruption fighting power of the Indian commercial trait generally meant very few corruption problems. I conquered all of Persia and took a center slice of England, and never had any significant corruption problems - now, had I gone after Cleo, well then I might have actually relocated my Palace.

Kon - you might consider marking your post as a spoiler - "Banana Isle" is probably intuitively an archipelago game, but I started the game wondering if I were to be isolated and then have to later invade a Pangea with seven advanced AI civs - some who just started the game may not yet know it is like an archipelago map.

Catt

	07-09-2002 00:16									#39
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Reminded by another thread. . . . if Palace Mobility is expected to be a tactic employed in a specific game, be very careful in choosing certain wonder locations. Like the FP, a wonder never moves - and often there is no need to move - Adam Smith's is just fine in any city in the empire. But productivity of the science wonders (Copernicus, Newton's, Seti) and some of the production wonders (Iron Works, Military Academy) is greatly influenced by corruption and waste.

It's easy to forget that a Palace move might have unintended consequences. In one of the first or second games where I was really playing with the tactic (as opposed to opportunistically relocating for some reason), I managed to relocate my capitol, only to discover that my city with the Colossus and both Copernicus and Newton's (in my former capitol's sphere of influence) had become a somewhat meager contributor to my total science output! I now try and build the science wonders, the Military Academy, etc. only in my FP core if there is any chance of my later relocating my palace.

Catt

	07-09-2002 01:32									#40
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Catt,

Good points that might not have been immediately apparent to those who don't move their palace much. The Colossus, Copernicus, Newton, SETI are all wonders that are only useful in low-corruption cities.

You're absolutely right that the best way to avoid trouble is to build these in or near your FP. The problem, of course, is that the Colossus in particular is an early wonder (I know the AI doesn't shoot for it, but still) and only very rarely have I managed to build it after I have a FP up and running.

Once the Colossus is built, that city is a serious contender for Copernicus and Newton. If it is built in a city w/o a river, then it's no big deal, as a large city on a river will probably have nearly as much trade as a non-river Colossus city. Throw in a gold mine and it's a wash.

There is nothing more beautiful than a well-placed FP city on a river w/a gold mine and good production.

-Arrian

	07-09-2002 02:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian You're absolutely right that the best way to avoid trouble is to build these in or near your FP. The problem, of course, is that the Colossus in particular is an early wonder (I know the AI doesn't shoot for it, but still) and only very rarely have I managed to build it after I have a FP up and running.

Yup - its tough with the Colossus since it usually comes before the FP and it's sometimes a tough trade-off between optimal placement and losing too much of the wonder effects to corruption.

I noticed with considerable admiration your thinkng in your GoUP to leave the Palace off-center until Flight (and the obsolescence of the Colossus) and then to move it to a slightly better location!

Catt

	07-09-2002 02:28									#42
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I just couldn't bear harming my Colossus city... and I don't think the eventual move made much of a difference anyway. A few cities to the SW of my core benifited, whereas a couple of core cities became a tad bit more corrupt.

The Egyptian game I posted in this thread worked out amazingly well because I had a perfect FP in 690BC (or 670, I don't remember).

Your palace hopping strategy pretty much depends on having a FP close to the original capitol location, right? If so, that will usually take care of the Colossus city.

-Arrian

	07-09-2002 02:29									#43
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Doesn't this then argue for determing the likely location of the FP, and building the Colossus in a town in that direction?

For instance, in AU 105, perhaps I should have prioritized getting a second town built south of Thebes, maybe built a temple there and moved directly on to the Colossus, rather than just building military units very early in Thebes.

Hmmm... good lesson.

	07-09-2002 02:45									#44
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what map size and difficulty level do you guys play on?

i get 3-4 leaders in an extremely aggressive and permanently-fought games at standard size... and that's if i'm lucky!

and these leaders i'll need for army (--> heroic epic & military academy), sistine, smith's trading, hoover dam, scientific method and if possible also the scientific wonders (colossus, copernicus, newton, seti) ... i don't have free leaders for multiple palace relocations...

	07-09-2002 04:00									#45
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There are times when there are no GWs to be built, and no dire need for more Armies (well....).

	07-09-2002 15:07									#46
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Very rare that you will have your first city slap bang in the middle of a circular continent, right? So your empire will always but always have a long axis. That's going to be a line on the map. Look at the relation of your capital to this axis. Imagine a second axis combining the geographical axis and the corruption gradient. It should become immediately obvious where to place your FP to attain an ellipse of very low corruption cities. Later on in the game it's your choice whether to use a GL to shift your palace to a different continent.
I've played games where I've shifted my capital four or five times in order to boost production in newly captured lands but what tends to happen is you end up paying a lot of upkeep for improvements that are suboptimal to say the least. Now I just go for an elliptical highly productive core and invest heavily in means of transport to shift those lovely units about as quick as possible. PS if it takes more than twenty turns for a 8-12 pop city to build your FP you're going to get a dead zone of corruption between the palace and the FP.

	07-09-2002 18:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus There are times when there are no GWs to be built, and no dire need for more Armies (well....).

i think you're talking about the middle to end of the industrial age. only (iirc) scientific method, hoover's dam and women's suffrage... and then nothing until SETI.

i once did a mistake and had a leader after those wonders and fortified him in a city... and forgot that there can't be more than one leader at a time... so i fought several world wars without another leader. in THAT case i should have used him for a palace relocation - true...

but otherwise... i don't know...

	07-09-2002 23:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf i get 3-4 leaders in an extremely aggressive and permanently-fought games at standard size... and that's if i'm lucky! and these leaders i'll need for army (--> heroic epic & military academy), sistine, smith's trading, hoover dam, scientific method and if possible also the scientific wonders (colossus, copernicus, newton, seti) ... i don't have free leaders for multiple palace relocations...

Last first: why would you use a leader on epic or any SW? Scientic Method is a tech and GL can not help. If you ony have 4 in a game- army-hoover are valid uses. Most of the time on a std map I will get 4-6 regardless of traits or play style. If on a bigger map as Rome and playing warmonger, it can be anything up 55. Common would be about 15. If you are getting more than 10 on a huge map you can use them for trival things. The key is not to keep them around, so you can get more.

	08-09-2002 00:02									#49
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sabrewolf meant ToE.

I agree with vxma1, though, in that if you are having a dearth of GLs, an Army and Hoover are probably my priorities, followed by Bach and Smith's. Most others (not always) I can nab through pre-builds.

What you CAN'T do, however, is effectively build a distant Palace or FP, and in a largish empire, that is critical. So a GL for this purpose is a fairly high priority.

	08-09-2002 00:26									#50
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I did not mention FP as I figured by the time I am going for Hoover I already have my FP, but it is a good use of a GL.

	08-09-2002 21:47									#51
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf what map size and difficulty level do you guys play on? i get 3-4 leaders in an extremely aggressive and permanently-fought games at standard size... and that's if i'm lucky!

I generally play Emperor, sometimes Monarch and sometimes Diety. Usually play on standard or small maps (sometimes large, every so often tiny for a quick game).

Like the others, I tend to focus some atention specifically on generating GLs, and might typically have generated between 2 and 5 by the early industrial age. From the industrial age onwards, it becomes increasingly easy to generate GLs, and the only limitations are those you place on yourself - lack of fighting, lack of using GLs, or less than optimal use of elite units. Coincidentally, as others have pointed out, it is also after the start of the industrial age that Palace jumping comes into its own -- if you need a GL for Hoover, by all means use it, but I've been having pretty good luck securing Hoover just be securing ToE through proper pre-building. Assuming that I used an early GL for an army (and it was victorious ), I have the Military Academy up and running and building just about nothing but armies. At this point GLs just become rush tools, and rushing the Palace can be a great tactic - with access to courthouses, police stations and factories, a Palace jump allows for a decent production core, even in pretty corrupt areas, once the Palace moves on. If I'm not moving my Palace, I'm probably using GLs on factories or armies. By the time of modern armor, GLs get used on cathedrals, libraries, etc. -- anything just to use them up and free up a slot for a new GL.

Catt

	15-10-2002 03:55									#52
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yep, i meant the theory of evolution, sorry...

i think it's a very powerful wonder. if you time it properly, it saves you approx. 8-16 turns (usual time for two reseached techs). time you can use to catch up in science, distance your opponents or just compensate as cash cow (which i don't recommend)

i usually use it in either of following two ways:

- if i managed to pre-build the wonder, i'll get atomic theory and electronics, two very scientificly intensive techs and race for the hoover dam (one of my favority wonders, because i like playing continents/pangea and consider myself as builder).

- speed through that slow phase of researches with no interesting products (corporation, refining, steel, combustion) and get those tanks early... getting those tanks 12 turns earlier than the AI means some dozen tanks (on standard size) to wipe out those lousy infantries and riflemen. cripple my neighbors and make them never be able to match my level again. soon after tanks (maybe 3-4 techs) come mechanised infantry which means my cities and virtually indefeatable until modern armour... so another (last) building phase.

i've also used ToE just for catching up in tech against the AI. the AI doesn't really bealine towards a specific tech, so if i do, that one extra tech can give me 3-4 others in exchange


so, that was my ode to darwin's wonder

	16-10-2002 23:55									#53
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Alright, this is a good thread.
Hopefully my attachment will work below of my current game.

Yeah, it's Chieftan, I'm still learning and have yet to play a "complete" game.

What I'd like to know is, how'm I doing?
Is my FP placement good, considering I'll probably move my own Palace to Washington when war breaks out?

That little city next to my FP city was a desperate attempt to get horses and deny them to Rome - which worked!

I accidentally blew my GA by building the Oracle in the Late Ancient Age - I was hoping to have low enough production that it would just be a pre-build for Sun Tzu or Sistine or something else I really wanted...at least I was in Republic at the time.

In fact, I was going to let America build the Pyramids in Washington too, since it would soon be my capital, but my production skyrocketed during my GA.


Anyway!
How's my FP placement, assuming a Palace Jump to Washington?

Should I trade my world map now, or wait until I finish colonizing that island to the North between "us" and Japan(isolated continent)?



So far I've had no wars. Not a single battle fought. That American city on the west coast culture flipped and I expect the one on the peninsula to do the same soon...saves me the trouble of building a settler and working the infrastructure while I worry about that Island.(Extra Iron and Horses! Woohoo!)

Attachment: cleopatra of the egyptians, 1210 ad.sav
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	17-10-2002 01:27									#54
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Darn, first try my image was too big.

The round circle on Memphis(?) denotes my FP city.
The arrow in the northwest points to the new island with extra Iron and Horses, plus 2 cows, 2 whales, some tundra and not a whole lot in the way of shield bonus tiles...one or maybe 2 hills.

So, if you don't want the download the save, you can get an idea of FP and planned capitol placement (Washington).

Comments? Ideas?

Edit: Changed Philadelphia to Washington as Palace jump target.

Attachment: fpplacement.jpg
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Last edited by ducki on 17-10-2002 at 02:05

	17-10-2002 01:32									#55
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Darn again. I accidentally cut off the map.
Here it is.

Attachment: map_and_stats.jpg
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	17-10-2002 01:42									#56
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I like Memphis for the FP, but I wouldn;t bother with Philly. You're going to want to project the CF power of the Palace in to the heart of America and Persia (if it's even necessary to move the Palace).

	17-10-2002 01:57									#57
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Did I say Philly?
I meant Washington. Sorry for the mixup.

Palace Jump to Washington...or is there a better spot on the minimap?

	17-10-2002 02:12									#58
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I'd lean toward Seattle. Do you mean a Palace Jump or building a new one?

	17-10-2002 02:28									#59
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Building a new one. I didn't realize there was a distinction, since you can only have one, I thought building one was a "jump".

I originally dismissed Seattle because it's on a coast, but does having the land on the other side of that "bay" or inlet make Seattle more efficient?
Or is it because there's Iron there?
Or some reason I've completely missed out on?


P.S. Thanks for the feedback!

	17-10-2002 02:43									#60
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1. Coast means gold.
2. The towns north of Washington aren;t going to amount to much anyway.
3. Again, projection of Palace Power in re culture flipping.

"Palace Jump" is when you abandon your original capitol, and then the 'best ' remaining town / city automatically gets a new Palace.