23-08-2002 19:58									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Kepler The standard conservative line is that anyone acting in interests larger than themselves -- civil rights advocates, environmentalists, union leaders, social workers, teachers -- must be doing it for cynical political purposes. Since conservatives use government for perpetuating power and grafting personal fortunes, it isn't surprising they accuse everyone of the same moral bankruptcy. They're a cop on the take who excuses himself by claiming "everybody's doing it," and slandering those who actually do their work in a professional, effective manner.

Well said.....I volunteer time at the local beach cleaning it up after the tourist trash it every weekend.....I must be trying to help the enviroment, because I wish to take over the world, or make lots of money picking up the trash, right?

	23-08-2002 20:01									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kepler The standard conservative line is that anyone acting in interests larger than themselves -- civil rights advocates, environmentalists, union leaders, social workers, teachers -- must be doing it for cynical political purposes. Since conservatives use government for perpetuating power and grafting personal fortunes, it isn't surprising they accuse everyone of the same moral bankruptcy. They're a cop on the take who excuses himself by claiming "everybody's doing it," and slandering those who actually do their work in a professional, effective manner.

[right wing rant]

sounds like more commie talk to me, boys... let's put him on our black list and detain him... he obviously doesn't believe in our country, under god!

[/right wing rant]

	23-08-2002 20:02									#63
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The standard conservative line is that anyone acting in interests larger than themselves -- civil rights advocates, environmentalists, union leaders, social workers, teachers -- must be doing it for cynical political purposes. Since conservatives use government for perpetuating power and grafting personal fortunes, it isn't surprising they accuse everyone of the same moral bankruptcy.

SIG TIME!

	23-08-2002 20:03									#64
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Sava: Why would your proposal be any better than Bush's? Let's try to leave what you think might possibly, maybe happen at some future time out of the arguement to insure that I don't get more of the same exact response.

	23-08-2002 20:08									#65
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Dinodoc - granted I don't know much about this issue and so won't comment on this particular proposal, per se, I would personally take any environmental schemes from the Bush administration with a pinch of salt. He did want to drill for oil in Alaska, remember.

	23-08-2002 20:09									#66
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The standard leftist line is that anyone acting in interests larger than themselves -- IE government -- must be doing it for cynical political purposes.

	23-08-2002 20:10									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Sava: Why would your proposal be any better than Bush's? Let's try to leave what you think might possibly, maybe happen at some future time out of the arguement to insure that I don't get more of the same exact response.

I'm not talking about possible futures here. My solution (well not really mine) is based upon what I have learned from reading literature and online sources that have experience in the forest preserve and fire prevention service. Bush's is a plan devised by his corporate logging constituents, no different from the energy plan written by Enron.

	23-08-2002 20:12									#68
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Dinodoc - granted I don't know much about this issue and so won't comment on this particular proposal, per se, I would personally take any environmental schemes from the Bush administration with a pinch of salt. He did want to drill for oil in Alaska, remember.

That was also a joke. The amount of oil that can be obtained from raping Alaska is the same amount of oil that could have been saved by raising the manual EPA Fuel Consumption minimum by 2 MPG. A bill that was defeated by Republicans (backed by the auto and oil industries).

	23-08-2002 20:14									#69
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Argumentum ad verecundiam and argumentum ad hominem all in one post. I'm impressed.

	23-08-2002 20:14									#70
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Theres good fires and bad fires. How are you proposing preventing bad fires?

And no it isn't as simple as managing underbrush in forested communities. Something much more drastic is needed.

Want to protect the forests? Teach more people responsibility. Most fires after all are caused by irresponsible people.

	23-08-2002 20:15									#71
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Simple pleasures for simple minds, eh?

	23-08-2002 20:46									#72
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Generally, I think we do too little to safeguard the environment, but it looks like you guys picked the wrong proposal to rant about. You would be more effective if you concentrated on stuff nobody argues is good: pollution by corporations that leaches into soil and groundwater and ends up killing people. That's not nearly as nebulous as global warming or the concept of Gaia.

I work in insurance... environmental claims to be specific. There are some truely ugly sites out there, LOADED with contamination, that pose a genuine risk to human health. Some of them have been documented as such for a decade or more before cleanup commenced, for various reasons... ultimately, this is a policy flaw. ***** about THAT (using facts and logic), and you may go far...

-Arrian

	23-08-2002 20:47									#73
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I'm from Australia and I can tell you one thing that "mother" nature has drilled into us with GRIM FINALITY. You ignore thinning the forests at your own peril.

This is not environmental, it's about lives.

Nature is not a mother, and it will kill you at the first opportunity you give it.

If you don't believe me, I challenge you to go out into the Australian outback without any preparation and see just how forgiving "mother" nature is.

	23-08-2002 21:17									#74
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quote: Originally posted by CICSMaster I'm from Australia and I can tell you one thing that "mother" nature has drilled into us with GRIM FINALITY. You ignore thinning the forests at your own peril. This is not environmental, it's about lives. Nature is not a mother, and it will kill you at the first opportunity you give it. If you don't believe me, I challenge you to go out into the Australian outback without any preparation and see just how forgiving "mother" nature is.

Dont live in a part of the world with the most poisonous animals per acre and you wont have a problem.........they were there first: dont ***** lol.

	23-08-2002 21:31									#75
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quote: Cleared rain forest becomes infertile very quickly because there are few nutrients in the rainforest.

not if one uses Chemical fertilizers , and pesticids

On topic: how is that logging going to occur? are they going to selectively chop down some trees inside the forests , but generally leave the forests intact, or are they going to clear entire patches of land?

	23-08-2002 21:33									#76
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They will claim to do it selectivley, but knowing buisness, they will just clear vast tracts of land.

	23-08-2002 21:44									#77
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slowwhand...

quote: What about beavers? Should they be rounded up and executed? I bet they all voted for Bush.

ok, maybe my mind is in the gutter right now, but~

======

anyway, the main thing that i have a problem with in regards to this proposal is that he's bypassing a lot of the protections on the environment by eliminated a lot of paths through which environmental groups can file protests...

i have no problem with him if he wants to expand logging. i won't like it, but he'll be out soon enough anyway; instead of logging in the depths of the forests, logging near communities would be more prudent.

no, my problem is that bush's administration has consistently allowed corporations to get away with more and more things by shafting the non-contributing groups-- i.e., the ones who don't contribute enough to the republican party and thus don't get to spend the night in the white house.

	23-08-2002 21:59									#78
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If we look at what is happening now, while he is governing can we see his real policy:

-Increase pollution.
-Weaken the economy.
-Make as many foreight countries as possible hate us as much as possible.
-Increase corruption.
-Reduce civil rights.
-Let the inteligence services make enough mistakes, especial on critical issues(like big terroristic attacks).
-Try to trigger a civil war in Afganistan.
-Increase trade barriers.
-Increase the national debt.
-Increase the number of wars, reduce peace.
-Destroy the reputation and the imago of the US.
-Let the US president look like a complet idiot.
-Reduce foreight trade(linked with: Make as many foreight countries as possible hate us as much as possible.)

	23-08-2002 22:08									#79
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sounds like a plan !

	23-08-2002 22:18									#80
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo If we look at what is happening now, while he is governing can we see his real policy: -Increase pollution. -Weaken the economy. -Make as many foreight countries as possible hate us as much as possible. -Increase corruption. -Reduce civil rights. -Let the inteligence services make enough mistakes, especial on critical issues(like big terroristic attacks). -Try to trigger a civil war in Afganistan. -Increase trade barriers. -Increase the national debt. -Increase the number of wars, reduce peace. -Destroy the reputation and the imago of the US. -Let the US president look like a complet idiot. -Reduce foreight trade(linked with: Make as many foreight countries as possible hate us as much as possible.)

I see it all now: He's an undercover Al-Quaeda operative!

	23-08-2002 22:29									#81
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He's Damien.

You can reduce the amount of trees per acre by clearcutting three acres and leaving one alone. The average number of tree per acre will drop down to what Norton (an avowed enemy of conservation, BTW) claims existed at the time of Lewis & Clark. However, the forests will be no safer from forest fires.

	23-08-2002 22:31									#82
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Need to ban people from being around forests to save them. That is if, we're truly concerned with the forest...

Too many irresponsible yahoos.

	24-08-2002 19:48									#83
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He's Damien.

Hehe good one.

Maybe he isn't but someone alike a "Damien" might be one of his councelours.

	26-08-2002 04:24									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Sava He should pass Reagan on the worst-president-ever-scale.

I agree, Bush is an Idiot!

	26-08-2002 04:45									#85
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He's Damien. You can reduce the amount of trees per acre by clearcutting three acres and leaving one alone. The average number of tree per acre will drop down to what Norton (an avowed enemy of conservation, BTW) claims existed at the time of Lewis & Clark. However, the forests will be no safer from forest fires.

Che, where exactly are they proposing clearcutting in the way you are describing it?

	26-08-2002 04:48									#86
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Che, where exactly are they proposing clearcutting in the way you are describing it?

It's implied because he's a Republican.

	26-08-2002 04:59									#87
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Dinodoc, I want to hear it from Che.