29-08-2002 06:22									#61
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Well spoken, Adam!

	29-08-2002 06:41									#62
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Economic Left/Right: -3.62
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -3.90

didn't copy the second test but it was %70 %50 IIRC.

	30-08-2002 03:37									#63
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Anyone want to help me to write a test specific to SMAC ?

	30-08-2002 03:42									#64
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Great idea! But what exactly do you have in mind? Asking some gameplay questions, and out of the answers will come the right party for you? Or something general, not specifically for this demo game?

	30-08-2002 03:47									#65
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Something general, based upon the way politic is organized in this demo game. I d rather focus on ideology, since SMAC is all about ideology, rather than gameplay.

What should be the results ?
A two scale grid ? A three scale grid (add ecology) ? A four scale grid (add ecology and religion) ?
Or it could be faction related : like you're 21%Hive, 56%Drones, etc... It doesnt sound good to me...

	30-08-2002 09:30									#66
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SMAC thing sounds fun .

Rather than a grid, maybe the results could be something like...

Prefered Government: Democracy (85%)
Prefered Economics: Free Market (40%)
Prefered Values: Knowledge (75%)
Prefered Future Society: Cybernetic (55%)

Most similar faction: University (40%)

Z

	30-08-2002 09:43									#67
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I like Zakharov's idea for the set-up Good idea though, Pandemoniak... how are you going to go about it? php? I have no knowledge of that language or I'd happily help out... *sighs*

Although if you have any ideas in what way you want to wording to go, one of my current studies in Uni is how to make unbiased polls, so if you need help in that department, I'd be happy to assist.

	30-08-2002 14:30									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Zakharov VII SMAC thing sounds fun . Rather than a grid, maybe the results could be something like... Prefered Government: Democracy (85%) Prefered Economics: Free Market (40%) Prefered Values: Knowledge (75%) Prefered Future Society: Cybernetic (55%) Most similar faction: University (40%) Z

No offense, but it sounds really primitive.
I think we can set up a test so that we take account of different choices : ie being 55% Cybernetic and 45% Eudaimonia is far different of 55% Cybernetic and 45% Police State.
Therefore, I think the best thing to do is to set up a scale for each category (politic, economy, value, future).
We have to keep in mind that this is futuristic governments, and so Democracy probably hasnt the same meaning as our nowadays democracy.
Moreover, we must strictly go for ideology and not for gameplay. Its a political compass test, not a "what kind of SMAC player are you ?"test, so it musnt be based on gameplay.

I know Im just throwing ideas there, its still messy in my head... Feedback Welcome.

To FlameFlash : Lets set it up in PNP (Pencil and Paper), and we'll deal with coding later, okay ?

	30-08-2002 18:07									#69
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Personally I think the SMAC SE system sucks and it is thus impossible to make a good test around it. For example, Fundamentalism is just a special flavour of police state, the authoritarian side of the auth.<->libertarian axis. Likewise Green is not a pure economic choice, but rather belongs to values. Only questions for FM<->Planned can be made up. And what to do about future societies? Can anyone give a closing definition of Eudaimonia?

	30-08-2002 18:39									#70
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Will do Pandemoniak! Whenever I get offered neat ideas I can help out with sometimes I get overly

Maniac, you have some points... but stop peeing in the pool! We can do it if we all together!

	30-08-2002 19:14									#71
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SMAC poll? Yeah. As long as I get to choose who looks best; Miriam or Deidre...

	30-08-2002 19:25									#72
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well thats a stupid question a woman that takes a mudbath everday or a woman that prayers in a dark and dampy churh......

	30-08-2002 20:46									#73
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DBTS> Well... if you like dark and dampy...
j/k, I prefer mudbaths

Now, that smaller poll listed me as Left-Liberal with;
Your Personal Self-Government Score is 90%.
Your Economic Self-Government Score is 30%.

And the POLITICAL COMPASS;
Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.00

...Oh, and btw, I, as the founder of LSD, also considered Free Market as a viable option.

	30-08-2002 23:03									#74
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In case anyone is interested, this is how I would organize SE in an earth scenario of mine. It has 6 fields. Two of them have four choices. The other four have two choices each, but they are combined to create 2x4 instead of 4x2 axises, everything together resulting in 16 choices:

Res: Research
Gro: Growth
Pol: Police
Pro: Probe
Eff: Efficiency
Ind: Industry
Eco: Economy
Pla: Planet
Mor: Morale
Sup: Support
Tal: Talent

Social Politics
Democratic: +2 Res, +2 Gro, -3 Pol
Totalitarian: +2 Pol, +2 Pro, +Eff, -2 Res

State Structure
Centralist: +2 Res, +Ind, -2 Pol
Confederate: +2 Pol, +2 Eff, -2 Ind

Economics
Free Market: +2 Eco, -2 Ind, -2 Pla
Planned: +2 Ind, +2 Gro, -2 Res

Foreign Trade Policy
Protectionist: +2 Talent (unused SE factor), +2 Pro, +Ind, -2 Res
Open: +1 Eco, +2 Res, -2 Pro, -2 Tal

Ruling Class
Technocrat: +2 Res, +2 Eff, -2 Sup
Harmonic (leftish green guys): +2 Pla, +2 Tal, -2 Gro
Junta: +2 Mor, +2 Sup, -2 Ind
Merchant: +Eco, +Ind, -2 Mor

Army (I'm not entirely content with that one, but couldn't find another good axis)
Levée-en-Masse: +2 Sup, +2 Pro, -2 Mor, -2 Gro
Conscript: No effects
Professional: +2 Mor, +2 Pla, -2 Sup
Robotic: +2 Gro, +Pol, +2Tal, -4 Sup

I think this is much better than the original Firaxis SE choices...

Last edited by Maniac on 30-08-2002 at 23:13

	30-08-2002 23:08									#75
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[now made irrelevent]I'm understanding some of the abbr. but would you mind posting a key for them?[/now made irrelevent]

Edit: Thanks Ade

Last edited by FlameFlash on 30-08-2002 at 23:18

	30-08-2002 23:09									#76
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Hmm.. Junta should have tremendous Economy-penalties. -3 at least.

	30-08-2002 23:15									#77
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Well I figured a military regime (which I called Junta because it sounds cooler IMO...) could be just as well Planned as FM and as such has no prerequired economic policies, so no economic boni or mali. But they do spend a lot of resources at military stuff, so -2 Industry does seem justified.

	30-08-2002 23:39									#78
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Well, just present me with one example of a military junta with its economy NOT going towards horse's ass...

	30-08-2002 23:59									#79
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are you going to make it so that it suggests a particular party?

	31-08-2002 00:33									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ade Well, just present me with one example of a military junta with its economy NOT going towards horse's ass...

The canonical answer being Pinochet's Chile, of course.

	31-08-2002 00:35									#81
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Maniac, I find your classification interesting, but at least as biased and assumptive as the ones that came with SMAC.

	31-08-2002 00:37									#82
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Unfortunately post-WW2 history is the period I know least about, but wasn't Argentina also quite succesful for some time? This has of course changed lately...

Moomin, I of course had to make some compromises between realism and gameplay. For example, I made the SE choices of Totalitarian (PS-Fundy hybrid), Planned and Power more attractive as almost no one (on Transcend MP difficulty level...) chooses them for a long period of time.

Some effects of course don't have a real good reason, but I found them necessary for balance, eg -2 Support for Technocrat.

Last edited by Maniac on 31-08-2002 at 00:43

	31-08-2002 01:35									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac In case anyone is interested, this is how I would organize SE in an earth scenario of mine. It has 6 fields. Two of them have four choices. The other four have two choices each, but they are combined to create 2x4 instead of 4x2 axises, everything together resulting in 16 choices: Res: Research Gro: Growth Pol: Police Pro: Probe Eff: Efficiency Ind: Industry Eco: Economy Pla: Planet Mor: Morale Sup: Support Tal: Talent Social Politics Democratic: +2 Res, +2 Gro, -3 Pol Totalitarian: +2 Pol, +2 Pro, +Eff, -2 Res State Structure Centralist: +2 Res, +Ind, -2 Pol Confederate: +2 Pol, +2 Eff, -2 Ind Economics Free Market: +2 Eco, -2 Ind, -2 Pla Planned: +2 Ind, +2 Gro, -2 Res Foreign Trade Policy Protectionist: +2 Talent (unused SE factor), +2 Pro, +Ind, -2 Res Open: +1 Eco, +2 Res, -2 Pro, -2 Tal Ruling Class Technocrat: +2 Res, +2 Eff, -2 Sup Harmonic (leftish green guys): +2 Pla, +2 Tal, -2 Gro Junta: +2 Mor, +2 Sup, -2 Ind Merchant: +Eco, +Ind, -2 Mor Army (I'm not entirely content with that one, but couldn't find another good axis) Levée-en-Masse: +2 Sup, +2 Pro, -2 Mor, -2 Gro Conscript: No effects Professional: +2 Mor, +2 Pla, -2 Sup Robotic: +2 Gro, +Pol, +2Tal, -4 Sup I think this is much better than the original Firaxis SE choices...

Yeah, but less balanced as well. Take for example a dictature/centralist/planned/open/junta/levée en masse, that IMHO looks like USSR :
Res: Research +2
Gro: Growth 0
Pol: Police 0
Pro: Probe +2
Eff: Efficiency +3
Ind: Industry 0
Eco: Economy +2
Pla: Planet 0
Mor: Morale 0
Sup: Support 4
Tal: Talent -4

Doesnt look really "realistic", actually...
Its just an example, but I think it shows this cannot be taken before many improvments.
Despite that, I think the SE categories you made are intersting for the test : we can make a test based on each categories tending to one or several options, rated on a percentage.
Ie results for Pandemoniak :
Politics : Libertarian 99% Authoritarist 1%
Social Structure : Centralist 20% Confederate 80%
Economics : Planned 60% Free Market 40%
Foreign Trade Policy : Open 95% Protectionnism 5%
Ruling Class : Technocrat 30% Harmonic 67% Junta 1% Merchant 1%
Army : none at all (Pacifist 99%)
We could try to arrange the diverse options, and write the test so that it gives results in that type (each category tending to one or several options).

EDIT :
Before you comment it :

quote: Economics : Planned 60% Free Market 40% Foreign Trade Policy : Open 95% Protectionnism 5%

IRL, I dont support Free Market because it has never been proved it was possible : state protectionnism has always been stronger than the simple will of having free markets.

	31-08-2002 01:49									#84
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Did the USSR have an open foreign trade policy?? I would expect them to be very protectionist.

Anyway, I don't see how you reached those stats.

Total/Planned/Centr/Open/Junta/Levée is:
Research: 0
Growth: -2
Police: 0
Probe: 0
Efficiency: +1
Industry: +1
Economy: +1
Planet: 0
Morale: 0
Support: +2
Talent: -2

Hmm. They cancel each other out in a most remarkable way...

quote: I IRL dont support Free Market because it has never be free because of protectionnism.

I'm afraid I don't understand that comment due to bad grammar. Could you please edit it? I'm rather interested in your reason.

Edit: I think I understand it after all...

	31-08-2002 01:58									#85
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I must have missed something somewhere, anwyay

USSR would rather be :
Research: +2
They were really good at that, space race, etc...

Growth: +1 or +2
I think there was some kind of policy about birth being encouraged

Police: +4 or more
Well, it was a police state

Probe: +2 or more
KGB... KGB...

Efficiency: -4 or less
Corruption disaster

Industry: +2
Because of Workers, of course.

Economy: -2
Maybe even more. Thats one of the main reasons of the USSR fall, after all. But maybe we can say its because of corruption ?

Planet: -3
Tchernobyl was after the dissolution of the USSR, but many pollutions happened before.

Morale: +1
Just for the good propaganda of Eisenstein, they deserve a +2

Support: -2
Heavy cost of maintenance obviously. Again, wasnt it due to Unefficiency ?

Talent: ??? I still havent figured out what it stands for

	31-08-2002 02:16									#86
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Let's change Open to Protectionist. Then the stats are:
Economy: 0
Research: -4
Probe: +4
Talent: +2
Growth: 0
Police: 0
Efficiency: +1
Industry: +2
Planet: 0
Morale: 0
Support: +2

Economy 0. Since that's the lowest stat you can get in this system (just as in Firaxis'), it seems correct.
Research: Come on! Please state one other field they were good at besides space.
Probe: I agree!
Talent: creates extra happy people. Well, that was at least the intention of their ideology...
Growth: I learned that Russia had a very small population growth
Police: still rather high compared to democratic regimes. Perhaps I should switch Centralist's -2 Pol to -2 Eff. That would give the USSR a higher police rating and more corruption.
Efficiency: see above
Industry: I agree they deserve a high rating. Without a lot of their resources wasted on the military it would even be higher!
Planet: well I was thinking about giving -2 Planet to Planned and give FM -2 Talent instead. But really, there can be given arguments both for giving Planet/Talent to FM as to Planned. Don't know what to do there.
Morale: When looking at the sorry state the Russian army is in nowadays... You could always consider USSR's army Consript. That would result in +2 Morale.
Support: +2. They supported a large army.

Also know that I deleted the efficiency penalties for planned/PS on purpose, as I wanted those choices to be viable for other factions besides the Hive.

	02-09-2002 02:42									#87
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Whatever, its useles for that political compass test. What do you suggest about improving these categories and sub-categories ?