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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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Woodrow Wilson forced America into WW1, costing over 120,000 US lives. For that alone, he counts as one of the worst in my book.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Bad and evil aren't the same. Both may have been incompetent, but evil? nah. |
Out of your league, as usual Boris.
Buchanan let Bleeding Kansas go on, and let civil war happen, and Johnson allowed the Jim Crow law types of the South to run wild, destroying the reconstruction, setting civil rights for blacks back 100 years.
Not evil?
Get real.
quote:
Since Clinton was on the "Most Evil Leader Ever" poll, and Bush wasn't, I'd take it your lack of complaining about that is more proof of your "centrist" beliefs? |
If you would bother to remove your head from your ass and stop your personal carping, you might notice I didn't say Clinton was evil, ever.
He was the king of doing nothing.
Someday you may understand I'm not anti-gay, not a conservative, and not an enemy.
quote:
And Dubya has done plenty wrong as President, depending on your point of view. |
Why don't you list those little things? 
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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Chris,
quote:
destroying the reconstruction |
I'd define "destroying Reconstruction" as a very good thing, personally.
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Neither of those are bad things, Floydy. |
Not in your opinion, but they certainly are in mine.
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Just remembered another of my favorite evil US leaders, LBJ. |
At least we agree on something - I hate LBJ.
Boris,
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"Forced?" Not quite. American popular sentiment was in favor of entering the war by 1917. |
Of course it was, because of Wilson's propaganda, and because of the Lusitania incident, which Wilson allowed to happen and was responsible for.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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Chris - yeah, I forgot about JFK. In addition to having some of the looser morals compared to other Presidents, he could have caused nuclear war.
Honestly, what was wrong with Russian missiles in Cuba? For crying out loud we had them in Turkey and Germany - what's the difference?
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
Out of your league, as usual Boris.
Buchanan let Bleeding Kansas go on, and let civil war happen, and Johnson allowed the Jim Crow law types of the South to run wild, destroying the reconstruction, setting civil rights for blacks back 100 years.
Not evil?
Get real. |
Nope, just impotent and incompetent. Buchanan and Johnson were spineless puppets, kinda like Reagan but without the gift of charm. I would say being "most evil" would require decisive action towards evil purposes, not being powerless to stop the evil actions of others.
quote:
If you would bother to remove your head from your ass and stop your personal carping, you might notice I didn't say Clinton was evil, ever.
He was the king of doing nothing. |
I didn't accuse you of saying such a thing. I was just pointing out how curious it was such a "centrist" would feel so compelled to whine about Bush's inclusion on this list but not Clinton's inclusion on the other... 
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Someday you may understand I'm not anti-gay, not a conservative, and not an enemy. |
1 & 3 I've never accused you of. I just think you're in the closet on 2... 
quote:
Why don't you list those little things? |
I have on plenty of other threads, but they'd be off topic here, as I didn't vote for Bush as being evil. I was just pointing out that his not doing anything wrong is based on your opinion of what the right and wrong actions were. He was certainly wrong, IMO, when he blatantly stole the 2000 election, but again, that's off-topic.
We need to get you to a spa or something for relaxion.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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Well of course, from our (well, his) point of view Russian missiles were a provocation, while US missiles were defensive, and that invading Cuba would be perfectly acceptable, while a Russion invasion of Germany would not.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov Nope, just impotent and incompetent. Buchanan and Johnson were spineless puppets, kinda like Reagan but without the gift of charm. I would say being "most evil" would require decisive action towards evil purposes, not being powerless to stop the evil actions of others. |
You need to read more , especially about Johnson, the first president ever impeached.
As for Reagan being a puppet, your WAY off.
He was the puppet master, just look at his history for proof of that.
quote:
I didn't accuse you of saying such a thing. I was just pointing out how curious it was such a "centrist" would feel so compelled to whine about Bush's inclusion on this list but not Clinton's inclusion on the other... |
First, commenting on somthing isn't a whine, I leave that to you.
Second, did I post in that thread?
I haven't even read it, and your making a comparison and value judgement based on that???
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1 & 3 I've never accused you of. I just think you're in the closet on 2... |
Not at all on #2, as a writer and historian, FACTS are all that matter, which is why I find constant Bush Carping so ridculous, since it isn't based on fact.
quote:
I have on plenty of other threads, but they'd be off topic here, as I didn't vote for Bush as being evil. I was just pointing out that his not doing anything wrong is based on your opinion of what the right and wrong actions were. He was certainly wrong, IMO, when he blatantly stole the 2000 election, but again, that's off-topic. |
An unfounded accusation, as has been proven numerous times.
That's just sour grapes, dear Boris.
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We need to get you to a spa or something for relaxion. |
I'd love it, but it's hardly needed.
However, a dose of objectivity for you might be in order. 
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
Well, a lot of propaganda was also coming from Britain in the U.S. Papers. So was German propaganda. |
Funny you should mention British and German propaganda. British propaganda included the probable manufacture of the Zimmerman note, and German propaganda included an attempt to put a warning in various US newspapers that the Lusitania was a valid war target, seeing as how it was a British flagged vessel traveling in a war zone carrying munitions.
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Wilson was responsible for the sinking of the Lusitania? Funny, I thought it was the torpedos fired by the German U-boat. Did they have some sort of secret orders from Wilson to fire on the Lucy? |
No, he was responsible for the Americans traveling on the vessel being unaware that it was a German target, due to his suppression of German warnings.
quote:
You can possibly blame the British Admiralty for the sinking, but Wilson is a very big stretch to get the blame for it. Did he capitalize on it? Yes. Cause it? Come on... |
No, Wilson is not responsible for the sinking - but I'd say he's largely to blame for the presence of Americans on board, and certainly responsible for the presence of munitions.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
You need to read more , especially about Johnson, the first president ever impeached. |
And his impeachment was as politically-motivated and out of line as Clinton's was. Look who impeached him, for pete's sake!
quote:
As for Reagan being a puppet, your WAY off.
He was the puppet master, just look at his history for proof of that. |
Yeah, whatever. Even his supporters have admitted that he surrounded himself with handlers committed to protecting him and to scripting him. He had a gift for charm and getting people to like him, but making governmental decisions? Mr. "I Don't Recall?"
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commenting on somthing isn't a whine |
You who accuse anyone who disagrees with you on anything a whiner,
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Second, did I post in that thread?
I haven't even read it, and your making a comparison and value judgement based on that??? |
You who claim to read every thread here.
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Not at all on #2, as a writer and historian, FACTS are all that matter, which is why I find constant Bush Carping so ridculous, since it isn't based on fact. |
Facts matter? Like that "fact" you purported that it was the Natives who first attacked the Spanish in the New World?
You don't have a monopoly on facts, Chris, as much as you may like to think so. And your instantly hostile responses to anyone you disagree with don't support this air of objective rationality you try to claim. Just admit you're as biased and emotional in your thoughts as everyone else...we don't care if you're human.
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An unfounded accusation, as has been proven numerous times.
That's just sour grapes, dear Boris. |
Proven? No way. There's a raging debate, perhaps unsettled, but nobody's proven it didn't happen. And again, not relevant to the thread.
quote:
I'd love it, but it's hardly needed.
However, a dose of objectivity for you might be in order. |
And again, you are no more objective than anyone else, despite how unassailable you think your pedastal might be...
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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Hadn't heard that - source?
But either way, the Zimmerman Note was not a provocation at all, even if real - it was a defensive mechanism for Germany in case the US waged war against Germany. It was turned into a provocation by propaganda. Either way, my original point stands.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Out of the list, I'd say it's probably Truman, for dropping the atomic bomb on civilians.
To me, though, the worst presidents - not necessarily evil, but worst - were FDR, Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, Woodrow Wilson, and of course Harry Truman. Most of the rest were pretty bad too, mind you. |
Okay, I'll try and not insult you following this blatant post of stupi_____ WAIT AHHH I stopped myself.... okay...
#1 Without FDR, you'd be speaking German now, son.
#2 Without Abraham Lincoln (probably our best president), North America would be no different than a war-torn land populated by 3 or 4 different "American countries" instead of one grand Union. But I'm sure your loyalties lie with the republic of Texas .
#3 Teddy Roosevelt was the most instrumental president in preserving capitalism by helping to break up the oil monopoly.
I've seen some dumb posts, but that one takes the cake David. Truman saved American and Japanese lives by bringing an end to WW2, and ushering in the end of massive infantry ground wars with the beginning of the nuclear age. Mutually Assured Destruction is the only thing that has saved the world the carnage of a third world war. As for FDR, he is only responsible for saving freedom, and a masterpiece called the Marshall Plan, which created the strong economy America enjoys now.
You should be ashamed of yourself David. You have insulted two of the greatest presidents ever, while still showign support for the boob in office now. It's obvious you are a bigot, and not worthy of any more of my flames.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
At any rate, the Lusitania sinking, while it enraged American sentiment, wasn't what did it. It was Germany's resumption of such tactics in 1917 that triggered the real drive to enter the war. |
It certainly was. But unrestricted submarine warfare was no more evil than normal warfare. If German submarines surfaced to warn the ship, there were instances of the merchant vessel trying to ram the submarine.
Further, unrestricted submarine warfare had nothing to do with the US - it was British and French vessels which were sunk, not American ones. If they were American vessels, which weren't actively supplying weapons to a belligerent in a warzone, you might have a point.
Now, American civilians who died on those vessels are another matter. Yes, they were killed by Germany. But when Germany tried to warn them against it - the Lusitania issue - Wilson suppressed the warnings. There's no reason to assume we wouldn't have suppressed other warnings, either.
Sava,
quote:
#1 Without FDR, you'd be speaking German now, son. |
Yeah, because Germany had the naval power to invade the US, and they were also close to an atomic bomb. Oh wait, I'm sorry, neither of those statements are correct.
quote:
#2 Without Abraham Lincoln (probably our best president), North America would be no different that a war-torn land populated by 3 or 4 different "American countries" instead of one grand Union. |
First of all, you can only prove two - the USA and CSA. But however many, I don't see a problem wtih this. If the people of the South no longer consented to rule from Washington, and decided to secede, and then form their own nation, there is certainly nothing in the Constitution stopping them, and for a nation founded on self-determinism and democracy, it seems that any attempt to prevent this is hypocritical, at best.
quote:
#3 Teddy Roosevelt was the most instrumental president in preserving capitalism by helping to break up the oil monopoly. |
I'm not making a capitalism argument, I'm making an argument that he had no right to interfere in the economy. I'm also making the argument that beefing up the military was unjustified.
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Truman saved American and Japanese lives by bringing an end to WW2, and ushering in the end of massive infantry ground wars with the beginning of the nuclear age. |
What he did was to murder Japanese civilians in order to save the lives of US military personnel. Intentionally killing civilians is known as a war crime, and also known as mass murder. Mass murder is certainly an evil act.
Although I admit Roosevelt and Churchill and especially Stalin did plenty mass murder of their own in the war - Dresden, Katyn Forest, Hamburg, firebombing Japanese cities, etc.
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Mutually Assured Destruction is the only thing that has saved the world the carnage of a third world war. |
I have no problem with the MAD concept, necessarily. I have a problem with killing civilians.
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As for FDR, he is only responsible for saving freedom, |
Actually the opposite is true. He massively increased the size of the federal government, massively increased taxes, and reduced individual rights (and if you don't believe this is true look up, for example, a case called Wickard v. Filburn, which was decided by his appointees). Not to mention the draft, which is totally antithetical to freedom.
quote:
and a masterpiece called the Marshall Plan, which created the strong economy America enjoys now. |
Actually he was dead when the Marshall Plan came around. Although I will admit that it became our responsibility to rebuild German cities after the unrestricted bombing we inflicted upon those cities and their civilians.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
You have insulted two of the greatest presidents ever, while still showign support for the boob in office now. It's obvious you are a bigot, and not worthy of any more of my flames. |
Since when have I shown support for Bush? I just don't (yet) consider him as bad as the ones I mentioned.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
Zimmerman inexplicably confirmed the authenticity of the telegram two days later. |
It is certainly inexplicable why he would do so, but I would submit that if the British can fake one document, they can certainly fake another.
And a source such as www.firstworldwar.com seems, at first glane, to be nothing more than a survey site that doesn't delve very deeply into the issues or question very much.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
If you can find a better source with evidence that the note was faked, I would enjoy reading it and I'll be the first to admit error. |
I'm sure I can find a source, but what it comes down to is no one knows for sure - valid cases can be made either way, I'm certain. I just happen to believe that the British were more likely to manufacture something to get the US into a war it appeared they were losing (not on the ground, but at sea, as one of their own admirals admitted to a US naval officer), than the Germans were to draw the US into a war they believed was winnable.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And his impeachment was as politically-motivated and out of line as Clinton's was. Look who impeached him, for pete's sake! |
Actually, both were correct, but blocked by cronies.
quote:
Yeah, whatever. Even his supporters have admitted that he surrounded himself with handlers committed to protecting him and to scripting him. He had a gift for charm and getting people to like him, but making governmental decisions? Mr. "I Don't Recall?" |
Your lack of understanding of Reagan is astounding.
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You who accuse anyone who disagrees with you on anything a whiner |
making it up as you go along again, eh?
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You who claim to read every thread here. |
I did?
News to me.
You must tell me more about myself, such as how your quoting things I never said.
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Facts matter? Like that "fact" you purported that it was the Natives who first attacked the Spanish in the New World? |
Your showing your ignorence again, it was Europeans, as in Vikings, and it's documented.
Also, the first English colony, Roanake Island, was completely wiped out as well, just for your edifaction.
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You don't have a monopoly on facts, Chris, as much as you may like to think so. |
Never said I did, Boris, but I never make it up, as you so love to do.quote:
And your instantly hostile responses to anyone you disagree with don't support this air of objective rationality you try to claim. |
Nonsense.
I only get hostile with extreme stupidity, which is often displayed here.quote:
Just admit you're as biased and emotional in your thoughts as everyone else...we don't care if you're human. |
More nonsense.
The whole world sees things from it's own point of view, the difference is I refuse to distort history, and I won't comment on things I don't know about.
quote:
Proven? No way. There's a raging debate, perhaps unsettled, but nobody's proven it didn't happen. And again, not relevant to the thread. |
You yourself said he STOLE the election, now you say it's a debate.
You just called yourself a liar!
quote:
And again, you are no more objective than anyone else, despite how unassailable you think your pedastal might be... |
It really annoys you that people realize your take on everything has an agenda, doesn't it?
You should try talking too people, instead of at them.
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29-08-2002 22:44
If you can find a better source with evidence that the note was faked, I would enjoy reading it and I'll be the first to admit error.
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