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Zakharov VII
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quote:
Originally posted by TKG
social psych->Secrets and Ethical Calculus->Democracy->everyone happy |
Everyone happy? Not quite.
First of all, IIRC, unless we pop a pod with a tech or somehow meet someone and trade techs, Social Psych shouldn't be an option after Ecology (but maybe I shouldn't tell you that, because if everyone votes Social Psych and I'm the only one to vote Industrial Base, my vote will win it second place and we'll have to choose it when Social Psych isn't an option  . Maybe not, since that wouldn't be very nice  ). EDIT: Anyways, Industrial Base isn't an option either, but still, as soon as possible, we should get it for Economics!!
Second, I still don't like this Secrets thing at all. We're north of the Freshwater Sea, and there's no Energy Resource near us. Whatever happened to deciding on Secrets based on our landing site? We don't have a very good energy start (IIRC, it was late last night when I looked at our 20 or so squares).
Third, while I like the concept of Democracy, I still don't like this Ethical Calculus thing at all. Democracy will slow us down since we lose the start minerals at a base.
The Growth benefit won't help us, as we'll have plenty of time to go from size 1 - size 2 before Colony Pods are built, and if not, we can make something to make some director or another happy (like Scouts, which I really don't like). We shouldn't get to size 3 early on, except at our Secret Project base(s), but they should have nice enough resources nearby for growth/production, or else they wouldn't be our Secret Project base(s) .
The Efficiency penalty will barely help early on, unless somehow we decide to go Planned. But that really, really shouldn't happen when Free Market is so easy to handle during our expansion era!! Once again, the growth of Planned is pointless, and who needs 10% cheaper facilities/units when you can be making 50-100% more cash and researching nearly twice as fast on Free Market?
Even if the Growth and Efficiency would help us slightly, think about what we give up. We give up about 5 turns of turn advantage (as new bases will probably be using a 2-1-? square, plus the base's 1, taking them 5 turns to recover the 10 minerals) with those minerals. IIRC, Vel's example of the greatness of turn advantage starts with a 5 turn, 10 mineral advantage. He was demonstrating the benefits of hurrying, but this time, rather than spending 25 EC's on each new base as Vel was suggesting, we're only losing a pointless Growth bonus and a couple of energy each turn we lose due to some inefficiency (which, itself isn't signifigant - Vel's example would spend 25 EC's at every base, so as long as we can found a base on average every 10 or so years (we'd be in trouble if we approached this average!), we get the better deal without Democracy).
Thus why we shouldn't go for Secrets and Democracy; there are times for Democracy, but only when we are a well-established faction, and when we have the power to fight to preserve our Democracy. What good would the Democratic ideals do for our people if applying them too early led to an angry Yang, with us too weak from crippling Support to defend against him? Democracy is ideal, I'll admit, and letting our people have it early would be wonderful, but that freedom would not be any confort when we're sitting around in someone's Punishment Sphere.
Free Market loses us no turn advantage, while gaining it through more frequent hurrying and faster technology discovery! The "damage" caused to Planet is not even noticable in our early years, with such weak industry. While we will be unable to Police our cities, what good are Police when we keep our settlements small and happy? Our second technology, therefore, should be Industrial Base, so we can get Industrial Economics and Free Market next.
Z
Last edited by Zakharov VII on 02-09-2002 at 04:51
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Method
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/me goes to France
Feb 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Zakharov VII
Second, I still don't like this Secrets thing at all. We're north of the Freshwater Sea, and there's no Energy Resource near us. Whatever happened to deciding on Secrets based on our landing site? We don't have a very good energy start (IIRC, it was late last night when I looked at our 20 or so squares). |
i have no intention of researching secrets. but of course, i don't decide that, and neither do you. we just have to wait for what the polls tell us.
and so what if i want ethical calculus? maybe i want creches. but again, it is the polls that will ultimatly decide what we research. social psych is actually my choice because we need rec commons to grow to size 3 (5 with HGP and talent bonus). who knows after that, what the polls will say. we might go to ethical calculus or head straight on to industrial automation. you just have to hope that people read what you have written, and hope they make an educated guess based on that.
but you're doing the same thing that people are ripping archaic for. you can't just treat this as an SP game, Z7, you have to RP a bit, because that's most of the fun.
Last edited by Method on 02-09-2002 at 04:54
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Zakharov VII
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Hmm, it wasn't letting me on Apolyton for awhile, anyways, I realized I made an error  .
Social Psych isn't offered as the second tech, but then again, neither is Industrial Base . We have a choice of Doctrine: Mobility, Information Networks, and Applied Physics...
(OOC)EDIT (yes, I'm editting this post, since you editted yours ): It's a weird sort of thing, this RP thing...I tried to throw together an explanation in the last part of my latest arguments, which does reflect my character - we can't have a Democracy till we have the might to defend it! PM me or something if you have some ideas/suggestions on the compromise between "logical" arguments and RP arguments, this is rather off-topic(/OOC)
Z
Last edited by Zakharov VII on 02-09-2002 at 05:19
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AdamTG02
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Williamsburg, Virginia
Aug 2002
time: 00:22
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About Democracy and efficiency...
Based on my simulations, it is fruitless to up the science rate as the Peacekeepers... unless we increase the initial Efficiency. At +1 Efficiency and 70% Research I was able to research the next tech 2 turns quicker (13 vs. 15). This was with an empire of four mid-sized (~3 pop) bases.
Since (in my experience anyway) research is much more useful early on than energy credits, this might be just what we would need to make that Industrial Auto beeline two decades before any of the other factions. (That figure is an estimate, nothing more, as I haven't played on beelines, so am not really sure what to expect from them.)
Alternately, Democracy makes feasible the mineral bonus of Planned, which would be invaluable in snagging an early Secret Project or two.
If Applied Physics, Doctrine: Mobility, and Information Networks are the only options after CentEco, that leaves us with a tough choice: Mobility for early exploration and maybe a few extra pods, as Commissioner Crisler recommends, or Networks to cash in the early artifacts? In my mind, if we're to be serious contenders for Secrets, and later the IndAuto beeline, Network Nodes are more important than rovers. We'll be getting a good deal of artifacts just with scout patrols, if my experience is any indication.
Just a few passing thoughts.
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Method
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/me goes to France
Feb 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by AdamTG02
If Applied Physics, Doctrine: Mobility, and Information Networks are the only options after CentEco, that leaves us with a tough choice: Mobility for early exploration and maybe a few extra pods, as Commissioner Crisler recommends, or Networks to cash in the early artifacts? In my mind, if we're to be serious contenders for Secrets, and later the IndAuto beeline, Network Nodes are more important than rovers. We'll be getting a good deal of artifacts just with scout patrols, if my experience is any indication. |
there's no chance we get secrets. information networks is important not only for cashing in artifacts, but it's also on the way to planetary economics (VW, planned) and automation.
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AdamTG02
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Williamsburg, Virginia
Aug 2002
time: 00:22
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Once more, a test has proved that it is possible to get Secrets. Once again, it depended on a significant amount of luck, but combined with the earlier test, it proves decisively in my mind that getting Secrets first is within the realm of reasonable possibility and not dependent on fluke.
I used in this test MrWhereItsAt's provisional build queue, scout patrol/colony pod/scout patrol/formers. This might appear to lose the advantage of placing formers early, but actually it was decisive in getting Secrets early, because in this game the tech depended not on alien artifacts but on trading techs with a neighbor.
I researched Centauri Ecology first, and placed my second base in an area that had been farmed and solared by two pods. Building two scout patrols in eaxch base before formers, I had a significant corps of explorers, and was able to explore enough of the map to place four bases by 2030 despite the fact that three or four of the eventual base sites I planned to use needed fungus removal or leveling before they were usable.
The real breakthrough, though, came after I had researched CentEco and InfoNets, when one of my scouts exploring east-southwest found Deirdre. She initially wanted 50 of my hard-earned energy credits for something called a Planetary Ecological Code, so I told her to go do whatever it is she does naked in the trees.  But after I moved my Disciplined scout patrol into position to attack Gaia's Landing, she seemed much more reasonable, trading Ethical Calculus (which gave me Democracy) and Social Psych (which I was currently researching) for Biogenetics and Info Networks, and signing Blood Truce, Treaty, and Pact in quick succession. I immediately got to choose a new tech to research -- and to my pleasure, Secrets was on the list. I immediately switched research to that -- due to my accumulated psychology research, it would have been completed in five turns; Democracy and upping the research rate boosted that to four turns. The upshot is that I got Secrets before 2035 (I didn't record the exact turn, but it was in the range 2030-2034).
Now, if my experience is any indication, we can expect to encounter another faction before Secrets are discovered at least half the time. If we assume they are willing to trade only 50% of the times we encounter them (accounting for the fact that it very well may be Yang to start with, or Zakharov who we almost certainly cannot trust with Biogenetics), then that still gives a 25% chance to effectively double our research. With this in mind, and the fact that my recent simulation didn't even turn up any artifacts to cash in, I think Secrets is a viable possibility. It may not be the most probabe outcome, but it's a viable outcome.
Once again, this is only my 2 cents.
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Zakharov VII
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OK, OK, I did some tests of my own. I never ran into a faction for tech trading . Only three trials were run, though, but this is what happened...
First two times I (we?) failed. Some AI...er...other faction leader...got Secrets in 2128 the first time, and 2131 the second time. The first time was a VERY weird "Secrets" beeline. While researching Ecology, IIRC, I got Industrial Base AND Information Networks from two pods...and then the next tech choice, Social Psych was unavailable! I went for Industrial Economics and I was on Free Market  . In 2128 there were 2 years left on Social Psych, with about 10 years per tech (this was the Big Bad Luck run - early secret time (at least, compared to my limited Thinker experience, 2128 seems VERY early), lots of extra techs slowing me down, and I lost a Colony Pod and a Former to Mindworm raids fairly early).
Second failure went fairly more smoothly. Unfortunately, the Morgan or Zakharov got Secrets in 2131, two years before we were going to get it. I can't remember what the pod situation was like, but I think the line went Centauri Ecology - Information Networks - Social Psych - Secrets, though it's possible that I got Industrial Base from a pod while researching Ecology and Social Psych was then an option, cutting down on one research cycle.
The third time I was successful. The other leaders obviously didn't do as well as the last two simulations, since I got Secrets in 2132.
Conclusion: Getting Secrets with our Centauri Ecology start depends on either meeting a faction for tech trading or popping a pod with Industrial Base, allowing us to continue right along to Social Psych. In addition, we have to hope the other faction leaders don't do well...we'd have to be very, very lucky to get Secrets before 2128 with a Centauri Ecology start!
Thus show the results of the computer simulations run by Zakharov VII of the Peacekeepers, year MY2101, not to be confused with the unethical Zakharov of the so-called University of Planet.
(OOC)I also noticed that the Peacekeepers start around the Freshwater Sea quite a bit! Twice in those four techs I started in the same place, a river near the Freshwater IIRC. The third time I started in a rainier area a bit north, near the Ridge IIRC. In another, more serious game I'm playing (that I'm actually SAVING so I can come back to it after more than one sitting), I started just south-east of our democracy game starting position - the one tile isthmus thing was about 3 tiles away.(/OOC)
Z
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Mellian
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I would like to join the Network Node, and at the moment, i have no comment
-Mellian
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Main_Brain
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Economic World Center
Jul 2002
time: 06:22
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Do i smell a Drone?
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Mellian
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quote:
Originally posted by TKG
rather than going to flexibility and then build boats, i'd rather just build the empath guild if we can, and then we don't have to go searching for the other factions. |
true, but we need a navy to go pod hunting too...then later for defence. Most of the other factions will most likely not be on this continent, so may as well take the first steps to have a naval force to intercept any potential threats coming our way by sea.
-Mellian
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02-09-2002 01:06
. if you don't want it to go to waste, give it away like i did, or better yet, sell it.
? no! 
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