31-08-2002 23:37									#31
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Aro: building a temple won't make any difference.

Sigh... This sucks! I hate when I loose a city in a cultural flip!

	31-08-2002 23:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Germany will not make peace until we have taken a city or they have taken one of ours and also they are in republic. Munich will NOT we razed, they can't pop rush. By taking it we secure nothing less than a one city gain in the war. We can also attack later, but taking munich will make them come to the table if we need peace. Aggie

hi ,

, indeed we should get something more from them , ....

have a nice day

	31-08-2002 23:46									#33
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Why won't it? It creates culture.

	31-08-2002 23:47									#34
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quote: Originally posted by OPD 1. Not taking the land of Rhiems/ Chartes will leave our new cities cut off from the rest of our empire. The whole French campaign will be a bit of a waste if the cities we've captured are left stranded.

Not true. Once we're in peace with the French we can move goods through their territory (does not require a RoP), meaning that once we finish the road to Chartres the French cities will be connected.

quote: Originally posted by OPD 2. It is possible for us to beat the greeks to settling the site of Rhiems if we start building a settler now after all the greeks are at war and not in REX.

Possible, but not likely. The Greek have all the advantages over us: this territory is closer to their capital, they're in a golden age and it will take their settler about half the time it will take our settler to get there.

quote: Originally posted by OPD 3. It will be alot easier to take/raze the cities now when we have the upper hand.

First of all, forget the work take. We cannot take any French cities anymore, only raze them.
Also, we will have the upper hand next time as well, now that we've crippled most of their production (Paris, Orleans and Marseille all had 3 or more population before we attacked IIRC. Paris had 5 citizens and was probably their most productive town). Razing them now instead of taking them the next war or by culture would be a total waste IMHO.

quote: Originally posted by OPD 4. A second campaing is a long way off as they will start building pikemen now.

We'll have tons of knights next time. Also, all their troops will be regulars unless they build barracks in some of their cities (currently we are 99% positive that they don't have a single town with barracks since we have only encountered regular French units).

quote: Originally posted by OPD 5. It is highly unlikely that Chartes will flip too us. In fact Marsielles will flip to the Greeks first. (can't remember the new name for Marseilles.)

I dunno about Marseille but Chartres can be easily flipped. It's very close to our capital, farther away from the new French capital in the west coast of Abananaba Major and has absolutely no culture. It'll be easy prey!

quote: Originally posted by OPD 6. A serious campaign against the Germans is IMHO unfesable ATM. Although it would be nice to weaken them by taking Hamburg it will take alot and won't really benefit us that much. Wereas taking the land of Rheims/Chartes would be of use to us as they are close enough to our capital

Actually I agree with you, but we still need these swordsmen in case there's trouble in the North or Northeast, as well as to capture America's incense before anyone else does.

	31-08-2002 23:50									#35
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Why won't it? It creates culture.

And it's backed up by Here It Is.
And our culture is roughly equal to Greece's culture.
Culture-flipping Marseille won't be as easy as OPD puts it.

	31-08-2002 23:52									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Germany will not make peace until we have taken a city or they have taken one of ours and also they are in republic. Munich will NOT we razed, they can't pop rush. By taking it we secure nothing less than a one city gain in the war. We can also attack later, but taking munich will make them come to the table if we need peace. Aggie

	31-08-2002 23:54									#37
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OPD a temple does make a difference since one of the factors is current owner city culture vs old owner city culture. I too would like wa with france if it could give us something, but the sad truth is it can't. All we do is risk the best techwhoring plan since spiffor's. also we risk Port Rouge. For what, to raze a city that in all proabablitity will we settle by someoneelse. Even if we could get there the risk is simply too great. In short a penny vs a treasure is what we are gambling if we don't make peace. Let me ask you this, would you bet a fortune to get a penny. You are a smart person as shown by your words and actions. I'm sure you can see my point.
Aggie

	01-09-2002 00:57									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie OPD a temple does make a difference since one of the factors is current owner city culture vs old owner city culture.

Yeah but the Greeks never had control of Marseilles.

Look at the difference in palace distances. Also sparta has more than 100 culture.

Compare the chances of Marseilles fliping to the chances of Chartes flipping.

In short Marseilles will flip and Chartes won't

	01-09-2002 01:01									#39
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quote: Yeah but the Greeks never had control of Marseilles

So they have a lesser chance of flipping it! Duh!

	01-09-2002 01:08									#40
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Then we need to do everything in our power to prevent it from flipping, including establishing new towns (not just to fill in the gaps anymore but for cultural support), building temples asap and garrisoning Marseilles with at least two units.

	01-09-2002 01:13									#41
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The current plan is to rout the remaining French regulars, raise the city the French recaptured, and thereby crush their morale. This will take only two turns. We come to the peace table stronger, Joan's AI recognizes that her strength is now weakened, she gives us a better offer as we press for peace.

The key element of the peace deal is Feudalism.

Then we go forward with techtrading as outlined in the turnchat orders

Why peace in two turns and not now? Because we will be able to force Joan to give us a better deal after she loses a city and what little is left of her army. She just retook Rheims and her AI thinks she's doing well in this war. We need to erase that erronious belief.

The war will end during this turnchat, there is little debate on that issue. The question is: When is the optimal time for peace? The optimal time would have been when we held Port Rouge, Here It Is, Marseilles, and Rheims, but we lost opportunity when they recaptured Rheims. We need to regain the upperhand and at that moment push for peace.

The new technology will be traded to the Aztecs for Monarchy & profit. It will then be sold to Rome (who is the only nation with 100+ gold) for pure profit. It may be traded for Republic, but Russia should have it due to GL, so we will have to find another partner to learn Republic.

--Togas

	01-09-2002 01:17									#42
	Re: Re: Why we should continue the war. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I see the campaign as being a waste unless we can take (the land of) at least one of the cities.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Not true. Once we're in peace with the French we can move goods through their territory (does not require a RoP), meaning that once we finish the road to Chartres the French cities will be connected.

True but they will be stranded in the sense that we won't have any nearby cities which can support them if attacked. Instead troops will have to move through French territory. And then what if someone gets the French into an alliance against us just like what happened with the Persians.

quote: Possible, but not likely. The Greek have all the advantages over us: this territory is closer to their capital, they're in a golden age and it will take their settler about half the time it will take our settler to get there.

It is hard to know the probablities but there is IMO a good chance we could get there first as the Greeks are at war. Razing it would be easy for us and it is unlikely that we would lose an archer. IMO we have nothing to lose.

quote: First of all, forget the work take. We cannot take any French cities anymore, only raze them. Also, we will have the upper hand next time as well, now that we've crippled most of their production (Paris, Orleans and Marseille all had 3 or more population before we attacked IIRC. Paris had 5 citizens and was probably their most productive town). Razing them now instead of taking them the next war or by culture would be a total waste IMHO.

The French are still stronger than us. It will be a while before we have a Knight army and so it would be wastefull not to take advantage now rather than waiting. If we do take the land now we can take other cities with a knight army.

quote: We'll have tons of knights next time. Also, all their troops will be regulars unless they build barracks in some of their cities (currently we are 99% positive that they don't have a single town with barracks since we have only encountered regular French units).

As I said above it'll be a while till we have a knight army. Also the French are almost out of REX and then we'll see some barracks

quote: I dunno about Marseille but Chartres can be easily flipped. It's very close to our capital, farther away from the new French capital in the west coast of Abananaba Major and has absolutely no culture. It'll be easy prey!

Like I said elsewhere Marseilles will flip first adn we only have 2 of Chartes' tile in our borders. We could maybe get a flip if we built a city on teh edge of it but we might aswell raze it and then build a new city instead.

quote: Actually I agree with you, but we still need these swordsmen in case there's trouble in the North or Northeast, as well as to capture America's incense before anyone else does.

We'll be at peace with the Germans a long time before the swords get anywhere near.

The main point is that Rheims and Chartes are alot more valuble to us than the other 3 cities due to thier proximity without these we might aswell have not bothered.

	01-09-2002 01:23									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Togas The current plan is to rout the remaining French regulars, raise the city the French recaptured, and thereby crush their morale. This will take only two turns. We come to the peace table stronger, Joan's AI recognizes that her strength is now weakened, she gives us a better offer as we press for peace. The key element of the peace deal is Feudalism. Then we go forward with techtrading as outlined in the turnchat orders Why peace in two turns and not now? Because we will be able to force Joan to give us a better deal after she loses a city and what little is left of her army. She just retook Rheims and her AI thinks she's doing well in this war. We need to erase that erronious belief. The war will end during this turnchat, there is little debate on that issue. The question is: When is the optimal time for peace? The optimal time would have been when we held Port Rouge, Here It Is, Marseilles, and Rheims, but we lost opportunity when they recaptured Rheims. We need to regain the upperhand and at that moment push for peace. The new technology will be traded to the Aztecs for Monarchy & profit. It will then be sold to Rome (who is the only nation with 100+ gold) for pure profit. It may be traded for Republic, but Russia should have it due to GL, so we will have to find another partner to learn Republic. --Togas

hi ,

sounds solid , ....

but we should maybe try to get a bit more out of the peace deal , ....



have a nice day

	01-09-2002 01:23									#44
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So they have a lesser chance of flipping it! Duh!

Dude please read the whole issue before responding

building a temple will not effect the ratio of "our culture for the city: their culture for the city" as they never had control of it.

	01-09-2002 01:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Togas The current plan is to rout the remaining French regulars, raise the city the French recaptured, and thereby crush their morale. This will take only two turns. We come to the peace table stronger, Joan's AI recognizes that her strength is now weakened, she gives us a better offer as we press for peace.

What if it is possible to get Chartes instead of Feudalism?

Also if Rhiems is going to be razed should we try and get the site by building a settler?

	01-09-2002 01:35									#46
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Togas: I don't think we'll gain much if we lower the price which France will charge for Feudalism. Currently they will sell it to us for 345 gold. After almost two hours of running experiments, using data from the .bic file regarding the cost of techs and careful calculations I have reached the conclusion that France will pay 320 gold, give or take 10 gold, for Monarchy (which we'll get after we execute your plan). So effectively the difference between paying 345 gold to France now and paying, say, 270-250 gold to France in a turn or two would be that we'll save 25 gold.
Now, I'm not sure if 25 gold is really worth all the risk involved but you've already made your mind and there's no point arguing now when the turns are about to be played.

OPD: I don't see why you think the French are stronger than us. Our army was stronger than theirs before we declared war (according to the foreign advisor) and now they're left with 11 towns, most of which are unconnected to iron nor to each other and out of which only 2 have 2 population. Our civ has 16 towns, several barracks and many workers. I don't see how you can regard the French as stronger.

	01-09-2002 01:39									#47
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Also if Rhiems is going to be razed should we try and get the site by building a settler?

Definitely IMHO.

	01-09-2002 01:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber OPD: I don't see why you think the French are stronger than us. Our army was stronger than theirs before we declared war (according to the foreign advisor) and now they're left with 11 towns, most of which are unconnected to iron nor to each other and out of which only 2 have 2 population. Our civ has 16 towns, several barracks and many workers. I don't see how you can regard the French as stronger.

I dunno I just looked at the ranking and they were above us.

You seem to have done alot of work on this tech trading thing so if you're sure it'll work then maybe peace is the best course of action

	01-09-2002 01:46									#49
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Ok then if were going to raze Rhiems and then get peace IMO we should fill the gap.

We can have a settler in Timeline in 8 turns from now if we are willing to sacrafice a slave from the stack. (I'll move this to the CP thread.)

Not having Chartes will not be ideal but at least our cities will overlap culture.

Edit: cheers Skywalker

Last edited by OPD on 01-09-2002 at 01:55

	01-09-2002 01:52									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Togas The current plan is to rout the remaining French regulars, raise the city the French recaptured, and thereby crush their morale. This will take only two turns. We come to the peace table stronger, Joan's AI recognizes that her strength is now weakened, she gives us a better offer as we press for peace. -Togas

Razing cities makes peace more unlikely no likely. They will demand more if we destroy their city. Course the Greeks will probably give you a medal for creating a nice city site for them.

	01-09-2002 01:52									#51
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Raze Termina?!

	01-09-2002 01:54									#52
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Razing cities makes peace more unlikely no likely. They will demand more if we destroy their city. Course the Greeks will probably give you a medal for creating a nice city site for them.

No they will be more intimidated if we destroy their city.

Also there is a chance that we could get to the site first.

	01-09-2002 01:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by OPD No they will be more intimidated if we destroy their city. Also there is a chance that we could get to the site first.

Yeah I give you 1 in 100.
How much is Alexander paying you?

	01-09-2002 02:07									#54
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The ranking gives a skewed picture of the real balance of power. It's based on an average of each civ's score in every turn since the beginning of the game. We have a low ranking only because we've had a rough start.
The histographs will give you a better view. Look at the score histograph and the power histograph and you'll see that France is significantly less powerful than us (and shrinking).

	01-09-2002 02:34									#55
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Togas, your plan would be ok EXCEPT we risk the romans or somebody else trading to france. IF they do the whole techwhore idea is GONE. YOU WILL HAVE LEFT US BEHIND IN TECH. Togas are you willing to bet everything on a very modest gain when we could squander everything. Do you want to be the person who puts us hopelessly behind in tech. You have contributed so much to this game it would be a shame if you squandered your well deserved reputation for thoughtfulness by not altering course when the facts say you should. Yes we will gain alittle by razing Rheims but the amount lost if this techwhore deal can not be done is beyond estimate. There is a general concensus to end the war NOW. You are going against the people. Right now you basically are betting a million dollars to get a dime. I see no reason for it.
Aggie

Edited to remove what I thought, after looking back, were offensive and nonconstructive statements

Last edited by Aggie on 01-09-2002 at 03:11

	01-09-2002 03:42									#56
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Hum... Aggie has a solid point. All the techwhoring project (and we really need those techs) could fail if the French have an opportunity to trade those techs. They can make it in one turn. I would prefer make peace now, but if the official plans are different, we only can wait , and cross the fingers.
I really think we should pay attention to Aggie’s warning. Btw, he's the SMC deputy! I don't like to argue with the military, specially when they say to stop the war now.

	01-09-2002 04:02									#57
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Yea, when the WAR MINISTRY wants to stop the war, we'd better stop. I bet even UBER would want to stop!

	01-09-2002 04:22									#58
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Is there that much to be gained from France that we would KILL half of Apolyton's population to do so, that's how much a settler will cost our capital.

What do we get in return? Grenoble and an opportunity for Greece to claim Rheims former city site?

I feel we need that pop to produce units to win the war with Persia and Germany and that Rheims is not the greatest threat to our nation.

	01-09-2002 05:28									#59
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Bhah the settler was never going to be built in poly

anyway it's not important anymore as peace has been declared despite my objections

	01-09-2002 05:32									#60
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Bhah the settler was never going to be built in poly anyway it's not important anymore as peace has been declared despite my objections

You old warmonger you.

Can I still bribe you to send workers to improve my land tiles?