02-09-2002 02:10									#31
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Could the DUE time be pushed to 10 or more hours? to Give me more time to cmpile?

	02-09-2002 02:11									#32
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Good point, orders should be seperate from debate. Can we freeze orders threads so only the minister can give orders.
Aggie

	02-09-2002 02:12									#33
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Contradictions should have to pass some kind of quickpoll of ministers. We can't just have someone saying they want to change something every order. NO one agrees with every order given.

	02-09-2002 02:14									#34
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I was testing that idea, but people wanted to be able to discuss in that thread. A post from me at the top of that thread where I compile ALL orders should work just the same.

	02-09-2002 02:16									#35
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I wouldn't have any major problem with pulling the limit back to ten hours before, though I'm not a minister so I really wouldn't know what's involved . In general, though, it seems like most orders are done before then. The one thing you would have to have a system for is, however, last second changes -- if Togas had decided to adopt the techwhoring plan, for instance, then he would have had a way to get it added even though it was only a few hours before the turnchat. Still, I think a simple PM or having someone point it out in the chat (if there is one) would probably be good enough to deal with that.

-- adaMada

EDIT: Oh, unortho, you left a trailing '7' out in that link you posted in your new thread.

Just FYI .

	02-09-2002 02:18									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yeah, that should be handled VIA PM to whomever is playing.

edit: just saw that too, should be fixed.

This damn keyboard leaves off too many keystrokes. I need a new one...

	02-09-2002 02:19									#37
	testing viability of a table... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

this is just a test, created with Composer (Mozilla) to use HTML:

code:



 

  
Government of Apolytonia
 
 

  
5 Turn Plan
 
 

  


  
Turn 1
  
Turn 2
  
Turn 3
  
Turn 4
  
Turn 5
 
 

  
Termina
  
Workers N, NW clearing jungle.
  Done 11 turns!!!
  
 
  
--
  
--
  
--
 
 

  
Banana HQ
  
Worker SQ moving
  to stack near Termina
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
Begin
  clearing jungle N, ,NW of Termina
 
 

  
Loveshack
  
Worker stack W
  clearing Jungle
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
Move
  S,  Clear Jungle
 
 

  
Napoleton
  
Worker stack S.
  
Build
  Road (After Completion, clear jungle unless threatened)
  
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
 

  

      

  

      

  

      

  

      

  

      

  

      


 

Last edited by WhiteBandit on 02-09-2002 at 02:32

	02-09-2002 02:20									#38
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The posted plans of the SMC was to sack Rheims. I PM'd Uber to ask him what his goals were and he wrote me that he'd fight as long as he had to. Uber, in essence, did not want to be the one to make the decision of how long to fight, he wanted someone else to make that decision.

No one had made the decision of how long to fight, but the debate was out there. It fell upon me to make the decision of whether or not to extend the war, I opted for peace, but I wanted to integrate it with the current plans of the SMC so that there would not be a conflict.

When I wrote my orders on Friday to wait two turns then declare peace, it was based on the existing orders of the SMC -- he posted that his troops were to sack Rheims.

His orders did not change on Saturday prior to the turnchat.

Now, if his deputy did change the orders in turnchat, his deputy was notauthorized to change my explicit instructions that peace would involve Feudalism, not those worthless cities. I also wrote down that the Aztecs were to be traded Feudalism for Monarchy, and my orders to create an embassy with the Aztecs were also ignored.

We're now stuck with a 8gpt repayment program, two worthless cities we're going to have to give away, and less money than we could have made if we had traded to the Aztecs first, then sold Feudalism to the Romans.

The turn chat wasn't just a joke, it was an indignity to the office of the Foreign Minister when the deputy SMC decides that he can overrule my orders entirely and submit his own plan because no one from my office was there to tell him not to.

--Togas

	02-09-2002 02:23									#39
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Anyone know why it posts about 2 miles of space between the table and what I wrote? Jesus. Well, at the moment I'll leave it there to show an example...

EDIT
Well I put

code:
 

brackets around the code and it seemed to have fixed the problem

Last edited by WhiteBandit on 02-09-2002 at 02:33

	02-09-2002 02:25									#40
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WhiteBandit...

Looks like Composer might be having a few problems, but I bet someone (actually, I could probably do it) could create a html layout for a table where you could replace with orders for turn 1, with orders for turn two, etc. for each of the various ministries.

In other words, the table can be done if Unortho wants it in that format , and I'd be happy to help anyone make one manually who wants to (though I'd have to remember how, I know I could do it once, and it's not all that bad, just kind of weird).

-- adaMada

Edit: White -- put a copy of whatever code you used in [code] brackets up there so I can see what you did and maybe I can tell you where the space came from.

Edit^2: Didn't think the [code] brackets would fix it, but I guess it makes sense .

One other thought -- when I'm doing complex stuff with lots of VB code and HTML, such as the Foreign Ministry Office thread, I normally play with it on my notepad first; that way, I can check for any obvious mistakes before it goes up. The Notepad might help anyone who's planning on a table/html based format .

Last edited by adaMada on 02-09-2002 at 02:35

	02-09-2002 02:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Yeah, that should be handled VIA PM to whomever is playing. edit: just saw that too, should be fixed. This damn keyboard leaves off too many keystrokes. I need a new one...

'k and 'k. Just checking that you knew about both .

-- adaMada

	02-09-2002 02:31									#42
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Togas,

Mistakes happened, that is clear. Help us to move forward. SERIOUS consideration needs to be placed on what a Deputies function is. MY understanding was that Aggie, (no offense) was relieved as of THIS CHAT, and had NO Authority whatsoever.


Posted in the 290 orders thread:

quote: I'm going to let aggies orders stand for wedneswdays turnchat. I'll reassume the position of SMC after the next turnchat.

	02-09-2002 02:33									#43
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada WhiteBandit... Looks like Composer might be having a few problems, but I bet someone (actually, I could probably do it) could create a html layout for a table where you could replace with orders for turn 1, with orders for turn two, etc. for each of the various ministries. In other words, the table can be done if Unortho wants it in that format , and I'd be happy to help anyone make one manually who wants to (though I'd have to remember how, I know I could do it once, and it's not all that bad, just kind of weird). -- adaMada Edit: White -- put whatever code you used in [code] brackets up there so I can see what you did and maybe I can tell you where the space came from.

If it's easy enough for me to learn, I would love it that way. I know jack about HTML. Not my area of computer expertise...

	02-09-2002 02:43									#44
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx If it's easy enough for me to learn, I would love it that way. I know jack about HTML. Not my area of computer expertise...

Let me look up how to do it again and see... as I recall, tables are only hard because it's very counter-intuitive -- once you've done it once or twice it gets easy. HTML as a whole isn't that easy to learn, but learning how to do a simple table probably wouldn't be that hard...

I'll think about it and look into it later; it'd be a very neat way of organizing orders, but it might be too much... either way, though, an individual minister could probably do a table, and then you could copy the code over into the combined orders thread, and that'd probably be easy if any ministers are interested in doing tables...

* adaMada realizes he's rambling again, and decides to just send the post and hope it makes sense .

-- adaMada

	02-09-2002 02:51									#45
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It was even worse for me, I missed the chat completely!

	02-09-2002 02:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Togas, Mistakes happened, that is clear. Help us to move forward.

This wasn't a "mistake" this was disregarding posted orders.

All we need to do to move forward is follow the posted orders during turnchat. It's not very difficult. It wasn't organization that caused the orders to ignored.

--Togas

	02-09-2002 03:22									#47
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We have a problem.

Togas is right, it is a matter of principle. Untill it will be made clear that it was either a mistake or a deliberate disregarding of Ministers orders, our democracy will be weakened. The problem exceeds largely the persons involved. I suggest not to go to the court for a trial, but to ask the court to issue a Reminder of Constitutionnal Laws applicable under the circumstances.

	02-09-2002 03:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I suggest not to go to the court for a trial, but to ask the court to issue a Reminder of Constitutionnal Laws applicable under the circumstances.

I'll go ahead and try to do something of the sort right now. But we must be patient with The Court. These things take time. Until then, I think it's imperative that we have a promise from the President (or VP should he do a turnchat) that the written orders will be followed, if at all possible.

--Togas

	02-09-2002 03:57									#49
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Unorthodox, I myself am unsure what exactly my status is. If I had thought I was going to stand in I would have been better prepared and would have discussed things with togas in a different context and we could have come to agreement. Also I could have PM Uber to get his views on the new deals. But since there had no public word from uber on the new options and debate and he wasn't there, the logical person to take over was me. Since he hadn't posted since the new proposals and ideas had come out, I had no idea of his feelings on the issues, though I did move the troops toward Rheims(just in case peace wasn't declared), as the orders were issued and would have followed the general directions elsewhere. You also will notice that I several times asked"will we make peace, since it effects orders". I did not "disregard the will of the FM", that was not in my power, yes i urged peace but the decison was made almost by general concensus. If I overstepped my bounds I apolagize, but I did what I thought was right then. This is my last statement on this issue.
Definitely I would like clarification of mine and all deputies power and limits(Like I said I'm not sure if I am a deputy, or temp replacement for Uber when he was away that week and then it ended.). Generally it would be nice,as has been stated elsewhere, if all orders were in one file. Would make life easier for Prez, or as I've said each person could do their part and send it. I don't see why the prez has to change worker to tile A instead of tile B or have worker build road. Let that minister do it and leave the prez for the less tedious stuff. Also this way if orders aren't carried out the minster has nobody to blame but himself.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 02-09-2002 at 04:07

	02-09-2002 03:58									#50
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Reasonnableness must prevail. Why a joint request to The Court would not be issued by the President and the Foreign Minister? In this document the President could confirm his understanding that he must apply Ministers orders, if at all possible.

	02-09-2002 05:01									#51
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Anyone have a problem with how I give my orders? Mine really aren't turn based ones. I just list the techs in order we should research.

	02-09-2002 05:07									#52
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Sure, we can be unhappy if the President doesn't follow our orders, but I do object to all this uproar. I think the virtue of being the President allows you some leeway. If the President has no other purpose then to move the game based on what we say, then what is the point? We might as well just play the game ourselves, or manage our own sections of the saved game and upload it to the next person (not entirely reasonable, I know). We might as well call our President a pawn, since at this moment, his only intent is to just play out what we tell him to. Where is the prestige of being President then? I don't support the President throwing out all our decisions and carrying on with the game himself, but he is the President, and since he ultimately controls the saved game, he should be able to override a minister's orders. (I should probably check the CoL regarding this issue actually)

By voting for a President, I personally am voting for someone whom I think has the intelligence and knowledge to lead our civilization. He can make decisions, and in cases when the decision *isn't* clear, he can use his own prerogative. It isn't like we trudged on blindly with an absurd disregard for orders. We thought about what to do, as well as our overall objectives: Peace with France. Granted it wasn't specifically carried out according to plan, but I still think what we acheived was highly satisfactory in our confused state.

Also, knowing how confusing turn chats can be, it would be wise to have either yourself there, or a deputy to fill in for you making sure that your plans are carried out in case confusion of this sort does happen.

How come orders were disregarded? Who knows, the chat was a mess. But Togas orders were also in contention (some wanted peace now, others did not. Should we take Rheims or not). Of course as a minister, he has a right to make his own orders, but MWIA did say in a thread he may have to decide how it is played out.

	02-09-2002 06:05									#53
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Going off topic back to what UnOrthO was talking about again (sorry, maybe this should be split into two threads -- one about arguing over what happened, and one about how to prevent it from happening again).

UnOrthO on the HTML Tables: A little web-based (and downloadable) program that'll make them for you can be found at http://www.bagism.com/tablemaker/ . It seems to work well enough if you don't use any of the *d options (I didn't test those) and put the whole thing in [code] brackets. At least it did with Mozilla and Internet Explorer on my notepad, anyway.

Furthermore, from the output there, you can probably figure out how to make them manually if you want to... if you do want to learn how to do it without that, then I can send you a list of all the tags that program uses and what they mean -- just either post or PM and ask.

Hope this helps!

-- adaMada

	02-09-2002 16:03									#54
	Remove this text

I had the idea of having Ministers number their orders, so when I let everyone know what I am doing (so you can all follow along), when moving Workers etc, all I need to do is type "PW 2" for Public Works Minister Order #2 instead of writing out the whole thing. This will speed unit movements and Worker orders, but isn't as applicable for Foreign Affairs or Science. There should be no problems, especially with a pre-turnthread that confirms all orders and checks for compatibility beforehand.

As far as the mess of the chat and not following orders goes, I personally would like to see less of all this - I am wholly responsible, being both President and the player of the game. Any more on this issue - PM me and I will talk as much as you like. Togas and I have been talking this way, and this has been helpful.

	02-09-2002 18:44									#55
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Extremely satisfied to learn that a discouraged Minister and the President have been talking in private, and that such talks have been helpful, the people have resumed discussing foot-ball.

In the offices of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs some concerns have been expressed regarding the Ministers physical health.

	02-09-2002 19:01									#56
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No what about having a) a turnthread with instructions and b) enforcing some behaviour rules in the chat?

for example, the player playing out the turn will ASK people and GIVE ALLOWANCE to the to speak. he may even trigger open discussion, but if he asks to stop all stop it.

to the problem of the pres or vice being late:
why dont you implement a kind of "chain of command"?

we have a coc stating who will be the designated player for a chat, starting with the president, then the vice-president, running though ministers, their deputies etc.
if the designated player (president) is not there till i believe 5-10 minutes after the proclaimed start-time, the next highest person in the coc will be designated player for this chat. so if the president and the vice-president are not there for example, but the domestic leader is, he will take over. if the president comes in after the chat was taken over, the chat remains up to the designated player.

	03-09-2002 00:11									#57
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It really was a joke, in my opinion, it was too late, should be at the old time of 2100GMT, which is acceptable to most people.

	03-09-2002 01:30									#58
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Acceptable to most, but not in general to the one who has to play the game.

	03-09-2002 02:49									#59
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Well, if you use a chain of command approach, he president need not be the one to play all the time. He could do it in turn with his vice. The chats would then be on 21:00 gmt and at a later time, depending on who plays...

Example:
Lets say the pres can go to 2:00gmt and the vice to 21:00gmt.
And lets say you have chats on wednesday and saturday.
In one week, the schedule would be:
wed:21:00gmt
sat:02:00gmt
In the next, it could be:
wed:02:00gmt
sat:21:00gmt

the european and the american players will be at their mostly preferred time in change ;-)

	03-09-2002 19:12									#60
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Good idea, Disorganizer!!