05-09-2002 00:58									#31
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I think we desperately needs some south/middleamarican civs and another african civ or two. And the two proposed civs from the australian corner of the world would be a nice balance too.

	05-09-2002 08:01									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Mannamagnus The Netherlands

with a new Great Wonder, the Red Light District. 50% of your pop is always happy .

	05-09-2002 12:34									#33
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Parsifal, Kalgacus:

First of all, I agree, "this is only a small poll on the topic of a computer game, so let's not take it too seriously."

Next, I really hate to repeat myself so many times, but it seems that you people still don't get it:
1. I've never said that Scotland was not important.
2. I didn't try to prove that Hungary was more important then Scotland.
3. I've never asked to replace Scotland with Hungary.

I wanted only, and only, to prove that Hungary deserves to be on a list, in a poll, so the civers could vote it. I've said this many times

I don't want to repeat all the arguments why Hungary should be there. They are all there in my previous posts; read them from this point of view. I accept that you are biased toward the scots, but that doesn't mean that you can treat with disrespect other nations.

Anyway I voted "Another" so from my point of view this discussion is over (with a bad taste in my mouth).

	05-09-2002 19:20									#34
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Having Scotland as a seperate civ would be like including Texas or Prussia, infact Prussia would have a greater claim(than Scotland), a better example would be Saxony

	05-09-2002 20:46									#35
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Would it really TheStinger, may I ask why?

	06-09-2002 00:28									#36
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I would have really enjoyed seeing a few other Civs in PtW... Here's the list -- in order of significance to me -- of Civs I'd like to see in a future XP.

1. Hebrews -- for so many reasons. They've been around forever, they'd make for great scenarios with rival Civs (e.g., Arabs), and they've greatly impacted cultures of other countries around the world.

2. Netherlands. They played a major role in my favorite time in history, the colonial era. I mean c'mon, at one point they were a decent mercantile/exploratory power! Henry Hudson and the like were important figures in New World history.

3. Incas. Even though they get a lot of crap for not having stood the test of time like other ancient cultures, they still made contributions to S. American history and culture. Machu Picchu IS a pretty cool name for a city. Plus, we need another American Civ.

	06-09-2002 00:43									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Parsifal Robert Dinwiddie (1693 - 1770) Born near Glasgow, was the Lieutenant-Governor of Virginia. He insisted that the colonies should raise money for their own protection. Discovered George Washington's talents and sent him to resist the French. Thus he was an important figure in American History and has been called the "Grandfather of the United States".

Well I guess you learn something new every day. I live right outside of Washington, D.C. and have always wondered where the name of a street in Arlington -- Dinwiddie Road -- came from!

	06-09-2002 04:00									#38
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It hardly matters to me who Firaxis add in any XPs after PTW. If I want a civ in the game, I'll just add it in with Civ3Edit (sure getting a leaderhead together is difficult, but I hardly care anyway). I've already added the Incas, Hebrews and Australians to my game, and I'm looking for even more civs to add (just as soon as I can figure out some leaders, great leaders, city names and UUs for them).

Though it would be good of Firaxis to lighten the load here (and maybe add extra culture groups for this), I'm not prepared to depend on the possibility of Firaxis adding many extra civs to the game after PTW.

	06-09-2002 14:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Kalgacus Would it really TheStinger, may I ask why?

Because all scotland did as an independant nation was fight the english. Once england and scotland were joined Britain went on to gain an empire.

	06-09-2002 14:58									#40
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Because all scotland did as an independant nation was fight the english. Once england and scotland were joined Britain went on to gain an empire.

When did Texas fight the English? Didn't they fight the Mexicans as well? If I recall correctly the Scots also fought Norway (defeat them at Largs), the Welsh and Spain, so that's not true.

	06-09-2002 15:03									#41
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No all I meant was that Texas was an independant nation but did bugger all to justify its inclusion as a civ, which is why no one has mentioned it.

	06-09-2002 16:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Carver with a new Great Wonder, the Red Light District. 50% of your pop is always happy .

May be that would be better as a Small Wonder, so every civ can build one. As all real countries have them nowadays, but only Holland let them pay tax!

A Great Wonder could be The East Indian Company, The Deltaworks or The Windmill project.

	13-09-2002 23:40									#43
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger No all I meant was that Texas was an independant nation but did bugger all to justify its inclusion as a civ, which is why no one has mentioned it.

...that wasn't clear.

	14-09-2002 06:28									#44
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I voted for Portugal because of their role in leading European exploration prior to being overtaken by Spain & England. They were the firat real unified nation of Europe during this time w/ sailing schools and "cutting" edge developments in ship designs.

	24-09-2002 21:56									#45
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Scotland may have some inventors, but so did Poland. Scottland was never a real empire - while Poland, since XIV
to XVIII century was one of the biggest (biggest for some time), strongest and most liberal states in Europe. We were stopping Russian, turkish and Austrian progress in eastern Europe for several centuries. If not Polish intervention, turks would have taken Wien twice, enough to say.
Hungary was a major power - only in Middle Ages though. Poland remained an important power until XVIII century. Hiding Poland behind Serbia is silly, and putting Scottland and Finland (which got independant only after Iww) is plain dumb. Serbia was a major power, but also only in regional scale, only under Stefan Duszan, in teh first part of XIV century. Also, its culture doesn't differ much from Russian,
while Poland represents another half of Slavic population, which is not orthodox.

	24-09-2002 23:56									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Scotland may have some inventors, but so did Poland. Scottland was never a real empire - while Poland, since XIV to XVIII century was one of the biggest (biggest for some time), strongest and most liberal states in Europe. We were stopping Russian, turkish and Austrian progress in eastern Europe for several centuries. If not Polish intervention, turks would have taken Wien twice, enough to say. Hungary was a major power - only in Middle Ages though. Poland remained an important power until XVIII century. Hiding Poland behind Serbia is silly, and putting Scottland and Finland (which got independant only after Iww) is plain dumb. Serbia was a major power, but also only in regional scale, only under Stefan Duszan, in teh first part of XIV century. Also, its culture doesn't differ much from Russian, while Poland represents another half of Slavic population, which is not orthodox.

Scotland WAS an empire when they were with the British.

quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Because all scotland did as an independant nation was fight the english. Once england and scotland were joined Britain went on to gain an empire.

That was correct, the economic gains of the joingin of our two nations allowed Britain (England with Scotland) to be one of the largest empires of the modern day

quote: Another English civ like Canada, Australia, Ireland, etc

This should be 'Another British Civ' as the English are only in England , the British are all over the world.

	25-09-2002 01:53									#47
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I think "British" instead of "English would make Scotts happy.
When it comes to two maps,
some comments;
1360;
western Podolia belonged to Poland - the boardershould be the same as on teh second map. Lithuania should stretch a bit more eastwards. Note that Silesia, Pomerania, Brandenburgia and Meklemburgia were still majorly Polish when it comes to nationality of citizens (lets say laregly when it comes two last ones), and ruled by Polish princes/marchgraves when it comes to most of Silesia, Pomerania, and theoretically Meklemburgia (later it turned into Polish-descent).By Polish I mean Polabian as well.
Second map;
the same with Silesia and Pomerania,
not that Lithuania was "added" to Poland,
which theoretically meant annexion, practically union and
quick polonisation of Lithuania. Bohemia with Hungary were under rule of Polish-Lithuanian dinasty
Teutonic Prussia, Moldavia and sometimes Vallachia and Pomerania were Polish fiefs.
Btw, I think that Bosnia was annexed by turkey in 1460 or
so.

	25-09-2002 02:47									#48
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If I had to choose 6 more civs for a future expansion, they'd likely be (in no particular order):

-Inca
-Ethiopia
-Scottland
-Hungaria
-The Netherlands
-Australian

Some are admittedly personal preferences rather than who some feel are more 'worthy', but are fine additions nonetheless.

Does anyone else notice that the American culture group is the smallest now?

	25-09-2002 04:21									#49
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Inca and Ethiopians - OK, though it's rather political correctness.
Netherlands - good choice
Australia - are You nuts?
Scottland - silly,
Hungary - questionable;
they were a major power in Middle Ages, but later...
make it Hungary + Austria + Czechs that would have some sense (though wouldn't be good too... choices choices)

	25-09-2002 08:49									#50
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Hence the whole "personal preferences" part. But hey, thanks.

	25-09-2002 13:16									#51
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Which exactly of those do You treat as personal preferences?

	25-09-2002 13:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Australia - are You nuts?

Excuse me?! I would like to ask, WHY IS IT 'NUTS' TO INCLUDE AUSTRALIA?!

I may seem biased being Australian myself, but the Australians have made a good addition to my game (as I modded them in).

I made them Scientific/Industrious with the Anzac (more powerful marine with all terrain as road) as the UU. I have managed to develop a few strategies using them, and they have enhanced gameplay (even playing against them can be somewhat of a challenge if I let them survive to the late Industrial age).

Besides, play on a world map such as Marla's and the Australians would be a perfect one to add, so as to evenly distribute each civ across the world. A reason why I would disagree with Portugal and the Netherlands being included (face it, how much of Europe did they hold? On most world maps in this game, Amsterdam is merely two-three squares away from Berlin, and Lisbon is merely two or three squares from Madrid. Surely Europe is overcrowded as it is having England, France, Germany, Spain, Celts, Vikings, Russia, Rome and Greece to contend for such small space)

You may have your own opinions about who should and shouldn't be included, but saying "are you nuts?" about it is a bit heavy-handed. "I disagree" would have sufficed. No problem with that. Even I recognise some of the reasons why Australia shouldn't be included. I just believe myself that the reasons why outweigh the reasons why not.

	25-09-2002 15:56									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Inca and Ethiopians - OK, though it's rather political correctness. Netherlands - good choice Australia - are You nuts? Scottland - silly, Hungary - questionable; they were a major power in Middle Ages, but later... make it Hungary + Austria + Czechs that would have some sense (though wouldn't be good too... choices choices)

And excuse me, why is Scotland a silly choice and the Netherlands a good one. I can only put that down to total ignorance on your part. No it's not silly at all. Simple minded people may point to the fact that Poland a large empire in the middle ages, but this doesn't matter. The terrain in that empire was very easy to conquer and rule, wheras Scottish topography is much more difficult absolutely. When the Romans had conquered modern day England and Wales they decided to spen a large proportion of their GDP on a massive wall rather than attempt to rule. In my opinion the unification of Scotland was a much greater achievement than the Polish Empire. If the Polish empire were really great it might just have survived the amount of time you'd expect for a people as large as the Poles. But no. If you are simple minded and you value only territory sizes, the Avars are a much better choice as are the Huns, the Australians, Canadians, Incans and Ethiopians. Ah but, I forgot, consistency is not important for you.

On the Dutch point, Holland is/was smaller than Scotland, it had less colonial impact, it's younger than Scotland, it's not as distinctive and, in my opinion, has achieved less. But go on, who's stopping you: say the Netherlands is a good choice and Scotland is silly, but don't expect everyone to let your ignorance rampage freely.

	25-09-2002 16:01									#54
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The land that was not conquered by the Romanns was not Scotland anymore than Gaul was France. The people who lived in those lands have no connection other than their location to the people who live there today.

	25-09-2002 17:50									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kalgacus Simple minded people may point to the fact that Poland a large empire in the middle ages, but this doesn't matter. The terrain in that empire was very easy to conquer and rule, wheras Scottish topography is much more difficult absolutely. In my opinion the unification of Scotland was a much greater achievement than the Polish Empire. If the Polish empire were really great it might just have survived the amount of time you'd expect for a people as large as the Poles.

You can view this from a different point of view, also. Once united, Scotland was easy to defend and it was easy for them to maintain independance. Yet what did the scots achieve before the union with England?

Poland and Hungary were permanently under fire, fighting with the turks and the russians from east and with the Prussians or the Hapsburgs from west.
They defended Europe for centuries from the Ottoman Empire. In 1456 Pope Calixtus III called Hungary the “Shield of Christianity” in honor of his heroic defence against the turks. In 1683 it was Sobieski who, at the request of the Pope, marched to the besieged Vienna and defeated the turks.
Without Byzantium, Poland, Hungary and others who fought against the turks, Europe could be mostly muslim today.
I understand the Scots' great contribution to the developement of arts and sciences, but how can you compare them in these terms with nations who had to fight in all of their history to maintain independence? I don't know about Poland, but Hungary basically had 50 years of "golden ages", during the Austria-Hungary empire, period in which they were able to develope their society.
I'm not trying to diminish the achievements of the scottish people, but your comparison is limping.

	25-09-2002 19:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The land that was not conquered by the Romanns was not Scotland anymore than Gaul was France. The people who lived in those lands have no connection other than their location to the people who live there today.

Thank you for your intelligent insight TheStinger, but you completely missed my point. I was using that as evidence that topography poses difficulty for any would-be conquere.

	25-09-2002 19:28									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kalgacus Thank you for your intelligent insight TheStinger, but you completely missed my point. I was using that as evidence that topography poses difficulty for any would-be conquere.

fair enough, its interesting that the Romans did occupy the (relativley) lowland bits of Scotland for a while but never got hold of the Highlands( They may have just though it was too bloody cold I suppose)

	25-09-2002 19:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius You can view this from a different point of view, also. Once united, Scotland was easy to defend and it was easy for them to maintain independance. Yet what did the scots achieve before the union with England? Poland and Hungary were permanently under fire, fighting with the turks and the russians from east and with the Prussians or the Hapsburgs from west. They defended Europe for centuries from the Ottoman Empire. In 1456 Pope Calixtus III called Hungary the “Shield of Christianity” in honor of his heroic defence against the turks. In 1683 it was Sobieski who, at the request of the Pope, marched to the besieged Vienna and defeated the turks. Without Byzantium, Poland, Hungary and others who fought against the turks, Europe could be mostly muslim today. I understand the Scots' great contribution to the developement of arts and sciences, but how can you compare them in these terms with nations who had to fight in all of their history to maintain independence? I don't know about Poland, but Hungary basically had 50 years of "golden ages", during the Austria-Hungary empire, period in which they were able to develope their society. I'm not trying to diminish the achievements of the scottish people, but your comparison is limping.

The Scots had to fight much of their history for indepedence also, and without the protection of Germans. I am actually aware now of Hungary's "golden Age", but it pales in comparion with the Scottish Enlightenment, and I don't think any serious historian of the history of ideas would dispute that. And, incidentally, the Scots had more independence during their golden age than the Hungarians, not that I think that's important, but some people clearly do. All the Union did for the first century or so was take away the right of the Scots to decide foreign policy alone and added to their trading power.

So I don't understand how my comparison can be "limping". Come to think of it, it isn't actually clear what you mean.

	25-09-2002 19:38									#59
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger fair enough, its interesting that the Romans did occupy the (relativley) lowland bits of Scotland for a while but never got hold of the Highlands( They may have just though it was too bloody cold I suppose)

that is true, but maintaining rule was all but impossble with only this because the small areas of lowlands were covered in forest and are vitually surounded by highlands.

	25-09-2002 19:54									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Kalgacus The Scots had to fight much of their history for indepedence also, and without the protection of Germans. I am actually aware now of Hungary's "golden Age", but it pales in comparion with the Scottish Enlightenment, and I don't think any serious historian of the history of ideas would dispute that. And, incidentally, the Scots had more independence during their golden age than the Hungarians, not that I think that's important, but some people clearly do. All the Union did for the first century or so was take away the right of the Scots to decide foreign policy alone and added to their trading power. So I don't understand how my comparison can be "limping". Come to think of it, it isn't actually clear what you mean.

Scotland and England have certainly had more wars than most. Infact the people who lived on and around the borders probably lived in a constant state of fear for several hundred years due to the almost constant skirmishing and raids. Hungary was probably more foramly independant but Scotland has alway supplied a large number of British leaders