06-09-2002 02:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm The risk of global warming is proportional to the little triangles in the cities of the world and the number of nukes dropped.

Well that's pretty annoying, since I can't control whether or not the AI uses nukes. Yet another reason why we MUST have a beefed-up AI. It (the AI) is simply too willing to use nukes.

EDIT: What I mean is a beefed-up UN, not AI.

	06-09-2002 02:49									#32
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Well, out goes my global pollution police. That'll save me fifty units a game. Still, at least I had good intentions. It's funny, what I was really doing was help other civs maintain productive, polluting cities with no national/global benefits smiles sheepishly.

	06-09-2002 02:57									#33
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So, then, even a beefed up UN or a new diplomatic agreement wouldn't work, because the only way to lower global warming would be to ask an AI to sell of some of it's factories, or reduce the population in it's larger cities, and there's not a chance in hell it will do that. "Say Bismark, this global warming thing is getting out of hand, could you kill off a few million of your citizens?" The option of a moratorium on use of nuclear weapons is an option, I suppose.

	06-09-2002 21:53									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Wormwood The option of a moratorium on use of nuclear weapons is an option, I suppose.

Actually that's exactly what I meant Wormwood, I just didn't explain myself very well. A global "anti-nuke" treaty would be awesome, and I guarantee would help the global warming issue. The AI is just too darn willing ATM to use nukes.

	06-09-2002 23:44									#35
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And how would you enforce it?

	07-09-2002 01:50									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Traelin Actually that's exactly what I meant Wormwood, I just didn't explain myself very well. A global "anti-nuke" treaty would be awesome, and I guarantee would help the global warming issue. The AI is just too darn willing ATM to use nukes.

Yeah, I would end up being the rogue state stockpiling nukes and expelling weapons inspectors until I can unleash hell on earth

	07-09-2002 03:20									#37
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Disable the Mannhatten Project, would that not stop any nukes?

	07-09-2002 04:35									#38
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Perhaps more of a MAD (mutually assured destruction) pattern is the answer, making the AI not using it's nukes for fear of retribution by your own or other nation's nukes. The problem is, how concerned could you be if the AI decided to nuke a third party? Perhaps the solution to that is to rework how the nukes work. They can be launched on your turn, but don't impact until sometime between your turn and the AI's. That way, when an AI launches theres, you can get a message "So-and-So has launched nuclear missiles!" Since you can't be sure who they were launched against, you retaliate by firing off all of your own, thus assuring MAD.

	07-09-2002 05:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Wormwood The problem is, how concerned could you be if the AI decided to nuke a third party? Perhaps the solution to that is to rework how the nukes work.

The United States, during the Cold War with the former USSR, extended its "Nuclear Umbrella" to its allies here in the Western Hemisphere as well as those in Europe, all of whom could be considered "third parties" in the Civ3 context of this scenario.

Perhaps another treaty-type, named Nuclear-Umbrella or whatever, could be considered. (Note: Nuclear-Umbrella IS NOT the same as SDI. NU=Retaliation for an action taken; SDI=Prevention of action/intended action.)

	07-09-2002 05:41									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs The United States, during the Cold War with the former USSR, extended its "Nuclear Umbrella" to its allies here in the Western Hemisphere as well as those in Europe, all of whom could be considered "third parties" in the Civ3 context of this scenario.

NU seems redundant, as anyone who you would not want nuked, you would also not want attacked in any way, so you might as well sign an MPP (assuming that you're chummy enough with them to care about what happens to them).

	07-09-2002 05:56									#41
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Consider it this way: The Nuclear Umbrella Pact would cover ONLY the use of nuclear weapons, while the MPP would continue to cover all weapons. Considering the hideous nature of nuclear weapons, you could care less about what other countries do to each other with their conventional weapons, but nuclear weapons adversely effect ALL civilizations (I'm still not clear about the effects of nuclear weapons on global warming ingame, perhaps Civs get mad just because they're told to do so...no other reason). Kind of like in SMAC where, once you had contact with all of the other factions, you could vote to affect either global warming or global cooling...or in CPT you and a rival could cease hostilities long enough to reduce pollution "to a non-threatening level."

	07-09-2002 07:46									#42
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OK, you've convinced me

	07-09-2002 07:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Wormwood OK, you've convinced me

Ah, another convert to the Church of DRoseDARs of Yester Day Freaks.

My plans for a Cultural Victory proceedeth forward...

Excellent...

	08-09-2002 19:40									#44
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Back on pollution/global warming. If possible, I try to be the first to Ecology/Recycling. The Ai's will pay big bucks for 'em. I never bothered to follow up tho. Do they actually then build the improvements, and are they factored in? If so, would bumping those improvements up the priority list help?

... I've just noticed that my posts seems to have a lot of question at once. Anyone know why? Can this be explained? Can Someone PLEASE help me? AARGH!! Questions everywhere I look! Stop the madness!!!!

	08-09-2002 21:16									#45
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hehe, in my current game i'm planning on nuking so much that i end up with a desert planet! arrr, good ol Kharak!

	08-10-2002 06:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Zachriel I would be more than willing to admit error in my previous post, but I would need more proof.

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Global warming in Civ3 is caused by all civs not just yours.

Is Global Warming truly global? To test this hypothesis, I took a game at 2049 AD, a game entering the Age of Future Techs. The Sun was yellow indicating some Global Warming. I abandoned every metropolis (population over 12). I deleted every pollution-causing improvement in my sole remaining city. Still Global Warming. I hit end-turn to make sure. Still Global Warming!



So yes, Global Warming is global. I stand corrected.

	08-10-2002 07:20									#47
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Zach, while I do believe that global warming is caused by all civs,* I doubt very much that your test as described would be valid. The affects of your sacrifice would not be seen for a few (or several) turns.

*Having AI civs also being effected by pollution is SUCH an improvement over civ2. I basically stopped playing civ2 because the AI would never get a polluted square.

	08-10-2002 17:48									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Zach, while I do believe that global warming is caused by all civs,* I doubt very much that your test as described would be valid. The affects of your sacrifice would not be seen for a few (or several) turns.

You are indicating a "flywheel effect." I ran the experiment for 2-3 turns. I might try running the experiment again when I have time.

	08-10-2002 22:02									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Zach, while I do believe that global warming is caused by all civs,* I doubt very much that your test as described would be valid. The affects of your sacrifice would not be seen for a few (or several) turns.

Well I'm not sure about Zach's test, but I can assure you that using nukes affects the Global Warming Indicator the VERY next turn. My current game is proof of that.

	09-10-2002 00:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 My experience is that players can not avoid warming regardless of what they do, unless they keep the pop below thresholds.

Two methods to deal with the socialistic "politically correct" concept of "Global Warming". {Scientists agree desertification is occuring at a higher rate, but convincing scientific data for hypothesis of 'Global Warming' is still missing as our data pools are too small and time frames are too large. Unless you use the Ice Age as the baseline norm, then we are definitely warming.}

Ok, ok, back to the game:

A- default rules

• Never build coal plants.
  
• Keep city population below 20.
  
• Don't cover every tile in your empire with a city tile.
  
• Plant some forests.
  
• Don't mine every tile.
  
• Conquer bad civs who use coal plants, etc.
  
• When you conquer a civ leave open space in new land. It is messed up with corruption anyway, so if no resources you are not really losing anything except score points based on land under control.
  
• Conquer other civs before nukes are available.
  

	09-10-2002 01:51									#51
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I think you just proved my case. Anyway the civs have those nasty little yellow dots on the advisor screen soooo early.

	09-10-2002 02:11									#52
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Guess I did, but only for Option A, not option B.

Here's an interesting thought-- will Manhattan as a SW tend to increase or decrease use of nukes and resultant desertificadtion?

-- PF

	09-10-2002 02:39									#53
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In single player, I would think reduce it at levels below emp/deity. I say that as the closer you are to Chief the less likely they will ever get it built. If MOnarch or higher and conquest or even dominate only then maybe they can get it. Just a guess.

	09-10-2002 02:41									#54
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I think you just proved my case. Anyway the civs have those nasty little yellow dots on the advisor screen soooo early.

Oh, that was a good one!
Referring to the F4 embassy indicators ...

	09-10-2002 02:56									#55
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Plant some forests. --PF

I think it's been established that planting forests has no effect.