16-02-2003 13:48									#31
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A key Wonder (at least the way I play). Growth of the civilization is paramount in the early stages of the game. Pyramides a invaluable for that end.
As others have said, you gain more production etc. too. I don't really see unhappiness as a drawbach since it can at all times easily be offset by creating entertainers. Worst thing that can happen to you is that your production is at the same level as a smaller city. That leads those reasoning that smaller cities are preferable ad absurdum.

Built to last forever, the Pyramides are easily one of the most powerful wonders in the entire game. Build them and win.

	17-02-2003 18:34									#32
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The relative value of the Pyramids are based on three basic variables.

1) World Size and # of opponets
2) Difficulty Level
3) Civilization you are playing

World Size

The larger the map, the more important this wonder is. The simple reason is that the REX phaseis a longer duration on a huge map. More opponets reduces the duration of the REX phase thus diluting the value in a given map size.

Difficulty Level

As stated in earlier posts, on lesser difficulties this wonder is more valuable. This is due not only to the unhappiness that this wonder creates on higher levels but also due to the fact that it is difficult to build on higher levels.

Civilization

Keep in mind that the Pyramids trigger a golden age for industrious and religious civ's. So if you like an early GA building the Pyramids is an excellent way to do so (esp for the Americans and Egyptians)

	18-02-2003 00:21									#33
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The Pyramids do not create unhappiness.

	18-02-2003 02:38									#34
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I think, like wrgj that the Pyramids, and above all the Great Library are the truly necesary wonders in the early stages.

I usually go all out for the Pyramids. When playing an ind/rel civ like Egypt (and my own modded civ ) this gives you a GA immediately which makes getting the Great Library very possible.

Of course, this is only in the higher difficulty levels. In anything below King, it is possible to be successful in the ancient ere without these wonders.

	18-02-2003 03:25									#35
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I don't think there's a single wonder that's an absolute must have in every game. I have several that I go for and am not happy if I miss them, but I don't quit and restart if I miss them. Sometimes I can win without them.
The Pyramids is a wonder I kind of go back and forth on. While undeniably helpful, I've never considered it a real necessity. My latest theory is that they're more valuable if my starting location is on terrain that doesn't give me a natural "settler factory" city with lots of early food production.

	18-02-2003 11:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah The Pyramids do not create unhappiness.

True the actual building of them does not ause unhappiness, but building them on a high level means that your population rise faster and cause increased unhappiness due to the larger city sizes. In emperor and diety every citizen after the first is born unhappy, so every population >2 needs a MP, lux, or happiness improvement or they will end up an entertainer.

	18-02-2003 12:35									#37
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I always go for the Pyramids. They slow me down for a while but after they are build they really boost my population, hence production.

So long...

	18-02-2003 20:03									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber True the actual building of them does not ause unhappiness, but building them on a high level means that your population rise faster and cause increased unhappiness due to the larger city sizes. In emperor and diety every citizen after the first is born unhappy, so every population >2 needs a MP, lux, or happiness improvement or they will end up an entertainer.

And the problem would be ...?
Even if you have to use the slider, you never end up with less taxes / research than you would have if your cities were smaller.

	18-02-2003 21:13									#39
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And the problem would be ...?

The problem is that you would need to build cathedrals, coloseums or lux/marketplaces much earlier than if you did not have a granary in the city. On higher levels it would be more efficient to build a granary in cities that need them while building another ancient wonder which would be more helpful like the Great Library or Great Light House. Or 10-15 Archers.

	18-02-2003 21:51									#40
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Mad Bomber, the point is that an extra citizen never causes an unhappiness "problem", because you can always turn it into a Specialist. Thus you lose nothing from the extra growth the Pyramids provides. The reason why you think unhappiness is a problem is that you expect all your citizens to become Laborers.

In any case, even if your population is getting "too high", you can always use it to provide a steady supply of Workers. Given that all your cities now have this "Worker factory" ability, you've got a nice little advantage.

But your point that you could be doing better things with the early Shields instead of the Pyramids is more contentious. But let me just say that the usefulness effect of the Pyramids is beyond question. This is why I will always rush the Pyramids with an ultra-early Leader. The real question is whether the Pyramids hold under a cost/benefit analysis in comparions to other improvements or Wonders, when you have to build it manually. I'm not certain of the answer to that one.


Dominae

	19-02-2003 08:01									#41
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Dominae:

I was not really arguing that it is not useful on higher difficulties, it is. However on high levels, you only get one or two shots at building ancient wonders if you can get them at all. I am simply saying that the relative value of the Pyramids declines the higher level you play at. Even with an early leader, on emperor or diety I would save it for the Great Library. This is even more apparent if you have to build happiness improvements to simply let the city grow to a size that can produce a settler much less to the point wher aqueducts are needed for growth. As for building large amounts of workers, its good so long as you can pay for them, even despotism has a unit limit in which support is required.

	19-02-2003 09:13									#42
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I would build Pyramids, since im the builder, expansionist type. To colonise land quickly and rapid building of roads between the cities with more workers is a must for me.
The culture boost is a great thing to have that early on in the game.

	19-02-2003 18:26									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The real question is whether the Pyramids hold under a cost/benefit analysis in comparions to other improvements or Wonders, when you have to build it manually. I'm not certain of the answer to that one. Dominae

Yes, they do. You would have to build a granary in every single city to get the same effect adding all the production and time for that I think that the Pyramids are more efficient. Also the upkeep cost is zero which is a nice effect. The same actually goes for the Sun Tzun Wonder and barracks. These effects become ever more importnat in distant cities where corruption is rampant.

So long...