17-09-2002 21:07									#61
	Re: Re: Re: The Arab world and 9/11 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Many of these so-called "democratic" reformers were in fact puppets of the Soviet Union. For example, documents released by the Soviets in the 1990s show that the Iranian communists were indeed planning to take over Iran with the aid of Soviet troops still occupying parts of northern Iran.

That dates your story to 1945-46, which would be before the period about which I wrote. With the Brits occupying the Southern half of Persia, I doubt the Communists would have been successful in a coup. Furthermore, given Stalin's orders to Commies all over the globe to cooperate with the West in this period, I find it odd that it would be different here. Stalin may well have felt that Persia was supposed to be part of the Soviet Union given Russia's historical expansion in that direction. When the US threatened the USSR with nuclear attack in 1946 if they did not leave Iran, that was the end of matters.

It has no bearing on the overthrow of Mossagdeh in 1953, or the training of Savak, or US efforts to undermine the revolution in 1979.

Also consider that while Communists around the globe were more than willing to take aid from the USSR, with the exception of the Communist Party in the US, we almost never took orders from them, even when given. I'm not just refering to us anti-Stalinist commies. Maoists, of course, viewed the USSR as social-imperialist, and as bad as or worse than the capitalists. Nationalist commies (like the Sandinistas or the MPLA of the Vietnamese) refused to listen to Soviet orders to compromise, which is where there were so many revolutions and guerilla wars. Even Cuba refused to obey the USSR, even breaking with it for a period in the late 60s. So if the world's commies weren't Moscow puppets, it's doubtful that liberals and progressives were Moscow's puppets.

Ned, Imran's right about the women of Iran. While urbanized women were embrasing the West, rural women looked with horror on what was happening. As the movement against the Shah grew, many Westernized women began adopting the shawl as a symbol of protet against the regime. Westernization became tired to the Shah. It is ironic that despite being such an anti-women regime, the Revolution granted women the right to vote, which they still have today.

	17-09-2002 21:29									#62
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Yep, che. As a percentage, I'd bet that women easily outpaced men in support of the Ayatollah. And speaking from personal experience, it seems that the women are more into Islam than men. Of course you have your radical looneys, but that is due to the fact that they are all teenages and have no cars to drive really, really fast .

	17-09-2002 22:01									#63
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That's been my personal experience also, among my Islamic friends. The men were more nationalistic, the women more religious. I'll never forget the day my two Afgani friends showed up in their shawls. I was actually horrified when I saw them, as they previously had always been little hip-hop girls. They only did that once though.

	17-09-2002 22:40									#64
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There's a movie out now called "Secret Ballot." It is a Iranian film concerning the right to vote on a small, out of the way Island. I understand that the women of the Island are simply incredulous when they are told they have the right to vote.

I am looking forward to seeing the film. I understand it is quite good.

Looking back on Iran, it seems to me that Iran was one more example of our supporting a dictator against his people if that dictator supported us against the USSR. Why it may have been a successful short term strategy, it was a long term disaster as it only alienated the people of the country.

	18-09-2002 00:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ned OK, Jack. What have we "done" in the Middle East? Of course we support Israel against Arab aggression. But is there anything else?

I never said I was against anything that the US has done. I am just saying that people in the middle east hate what the US has done, I never said I hold that view, and I dont hate the United States.

	18-09-2002 00:56									#66
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Jack, regardless on your own views, I would simply like to understand what it is that we have done in the Middle East to cause Arab anger other than our support for Israel and the Shah? You said their anger there was because of the many things we had done. But what things?

	18-09-2002 01:01									#67
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Some hate the fact that the US invaded Iraq in 1991. Many felt resentment after the US stop helping afganistan out after they drove the Soviet Union out. Many dont like the fact that the US has supported dictators that oppressed their people durring the COld War. That is just some of the things they hate.

	18-09-2002 01:23									#68
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Jack, Thanks.

	18-09-2002 02:37									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Jack, regardless on your own views, I would simply like to understand what it is that we have done in the Middle East to cause Arab anger other than our support for Israel and the Shah? You said their anger there was because of the many things we had done. But what things?

The 1979 Revolution was carried out by many group- I had a firend in high School who's afther was a lead revolutionary, and he was from a Pro-democratic group. Khomeini was reveared as a unifying opposition leader (there is a long history of ties between th merchants and the Ulama in Iran) and over time the Revoltuion begun to be focused around the Islamist groups, not the others, who were driven out of the gov. Anyway, women in Shia Iran have a lot more freedom than in Sunni Saudi Arabia.

As for what we have done: we help keep the Saudis and egyptians in power: if you notice, how come one does not hear of Lybians, Syrians, Iranians and so forth in Al Qaeda, when these are the most anti-US states, yet it is mainly made up of Saudis and Egyptians, the staucnh US allies? Becuase Islamists hate the Egyptian and Saudi governments. Egypt is the birthplace of the modern Islamist movement, and for all the money the Sauds give extremists, they are still a decadent bunch, and we in the US help these two regimes the most: give them huge amounts of money, weapons, intelligence, all ebcause they help our other interests, like Israel or steady oil prices. So the people of these two satte hate us because we are the bects friends of the regimes they also hate.

	18-09-2002 03:56									#70
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GePap, Correct me if I am wrong, but the Saud king, Aziz, conquered Arabia using Wahhabi armies known as the Ihwan. But he destroyed their army in 1929 when they refused to curb their appetite for forced conversion to Wahhabism. I presume the people who hate the Saud family are these very same Wahhibi's.

OBL clearly is a Wahhabi and is very anti-Saud. I think he is anti-US largely because the Saud family has granted the US basing rights in Saudi Arabia, which, to the Wahhabi's, is a sacrilege. We, after all, are the Crusaders, the most evil of Infidel. OBL is only secondarily anti-US because of our support of Israel.

As to Egypt, it seems clear that the anti-US feelings are two-fold. First, the radical Muslims hate the leadership of Egypt because they settled with Israel. They hate the US because we support Israel. The only way we could reverse the anti-American portion of this hatred is to reverse our support of Israel. Right?

Your point about al Qaida finding recruits in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, but not in Syria and Lybia, is well taken. al Qaida began and is fueld by anti-Saud and anti-Sadat/Mubarrak fundamentalists.

So, it seems, the ultimate solution to al Qaida is to settle the question of Israel; get rid of the Saud family and provide real democracy in Arabia.