29-09-2002 04:50									#31
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Well, I constantly find that in peaceful deity games that the ToE turns my game around. With Atomic Theory and Electronics discovered ahead of everyone else, I can sell AT and drain the cash out of everyone and still be quite able to complete Hoover Dam. ToE seems to come along just at the right time - when I've just caught up to the AI tech-wise.

	29-09-2002 04:54									#32
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Also, without war one generates no leaders and I find that trying to build the Great Library is almost impossible without seriously crippling the necessary expansion for your civ. You can typically buy all the techs you would have got with the GL anyway, as you're usually an age behind anyone. If you do get the GL you will fall behind again soon anyway, in my experience. Your city number, expansion and infrastructure will all have suffered far too greatly.

	29-09-2002 05:33									#33
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Punkbass, did you read my posts in this thread? I wrote that the TOE is near-essential, and getting it was part of my strategy. But as you can see, I built the GL without war and without crippling my expansion. The money I saved by not buying the techs outright allowed me to keep buying them afterward. As a result, I was never an era behind - only two or so techs at most. As a result, I launched very early, with no close calls.

	29-09-2002 10:47									#34
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ToE to Hoover is on the verge of being an exploit... but as long as it's there waiting, let's all use it.

Even better, it sets you up for the industrial corridor.

I'm psyching myself up for a Deity OCC game... Txurce (and others), what would be your biggest tips? Mucho help please, as I've never tried an OCC in any version of Civ. Probably the biggest thing I can;t conceptualize is multiple GWs...

	29-09-2002 12:17									#35
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Has anyone been succesfull on a deity OCC game yet?

Sounds mighty brave Theseus

I 've done one OCC so far (on eugh warlord btw , experiment, you see ), it went pretty well too, until the game decided to crash on me .
Still, you can learn quite alot from it.

And about ToE, yes, I agree with you on it being (almost?) an exploit. It isn't any fun either IMO

	29-09-2002 20:33									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Txurce Punkbass, did you read my posts in this thread? I wrote that the TOE is near-essential, and getting it was part of my strategy. But as you can see, I built the GL without war and without crippling my expansion. The money I saved by not buying the techs outright allowed me to keep buying them afterward. As a result, I was never an era behind - only two or so techs at most. As a result, I launched very early, with no close calls.

I must admit that at the time I hadn't read most of the posts in this thread due to time constraints. Do you really find it possible to expand quickly enough and build the GL? I'm under the impression that to build the GL you are going to need your second city to start pre-building immediately, which should effectively cut your growth rate in half.

	29-09-2002 20:34									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ToE to Hoover is on the verge of being an exploit... but as long as it's there waiting, let's all use it. Even better, it sets you up for the industrial corridor. I'm psyching myself up for a Deity OCC game... Txurce (and others), what would be your biggest tips? Mucho help please, as I've never tried an OCC in any version of Civ. Probably the biggest thing I can;t conceptualize is multiple GWs...

Even without Hoover, I'm beginning to believe that ToE is an exploit in and of itself. In the game I posted I didn't even get Hoover because I had no river/fresh water access.

As for tips, I think the hardest part is going to be keeping up a sufficient military without falling behind. If you're playing a large map, consider choosing the Iroquois. Religious is obviously a bonus, and expansionist is the best for a large map. If you're lucky, you may be able to raze a few nearby cities with MWs. I once was discussing OCC with Sir Pleb, and we concluded that the Aztecs would also give you an outside chance with OCC and give you a whole new angle. Cheap barracks plus JW's = early war in OCC. You might be able to sue for peace for a lot. IMO, both commercial and industrious are clearly quite useless for OCC.

	29-09-2002 20:46									#38
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Theseus, I was pretty good at OCC in Civ2 (1910 or so launch), but there were significantly better players. The first thing to remember is that you can be wiped out at any time, so be ready to start over repeatedly. In Civ2, you often spent a long time looking for a four-resource sweet spot; in Civ3, I'd suggest looking for a luxury cluster tha can later bring in gold... if you don't find one soon enough, start over. And I wouldn't worry how long it takes you to find it, because you're going to be outrageously behind in tech early on anyway. A coastal location is ideal for trade, but you won't have that much to trade, and could gamble on your neighbor's sea routes.

As for traits, military is near-worthless, expansionist only slightly better. The industrious worker is almost irrelevant, and the production boost so-so; the same is true of commercial, except there's no worker. Religious still gives you an edge, although going from despotism to republic is probably effective enough, and the buildings go up faster. Scientific is probably the best, cheap buildings aside, because the free techs provide a boost.

Consider all this, and you may want to choose the civ based on the UU! When do you want a GA? Because you can still walk far away, attack somebody, and have a well-timed GA. Given that building infrastructure doesn't spike too much in OCC, an early GA could possibly give you the GL, or Colossus. What other GWs have value? Shakespeare's Theater and the TOE, and both of those are more doable without a GA (although you can't even prebuild the FP!). Interestingly, you may want to choose the Greeks, because vet hoplites will keep you safe until the advent of cavalry, and by then you could be someone's sneaky vassal.

	29-09-2002 20:55									#39
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I'm not sure how much of an exploit TOE-to-Hoover's is, given that you have to build back-to-back wonders, the TOE is only somewhat better than the scientific edge, and Hoover's value is rarely decisive. I see it as a reasonable investment in tech.

(That said, I can see how in a game where you're in control anyway, nailing those two wonders is too easy in and of itself, and only gives you an even more unassailable lead.)

If there is an exploit, I see it in the AI's overpaying for atomic theory. What's so great about that theory? And if it's that great, why aren't they gunning for the TOE?

	29-09-2002 20:59									#40
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Punkbass, I built the GL and expanded as much as necessary in the Egyptian game. I'll be posting soon about a Chinese game in which I built the GL and successfully warmongered at the same time. So yes, I think you can do it, with your second, third, or fourth cities, after building a temple. But there's no doubt that the AI could beat you to it at any time.

	29-09-2002 22:43									#41
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I am not following the ToE bit? I mean have you not got the game in control by the time you start building it anyway? Surely Hoover is nice, but I have failed to get it and not been hurt. What does it do anyway? Gives me a hydro plant, do I need one? In old cities I could have built one before the wonder was done, if I wanted. In new cities, not much helps as I am way beyond them being productive. So to me those wonders are fun, but you could get by without them without a hiccup.
As to GL, I make it in my capitol often without much strain as I have mined all worked tiles.

	30-09-2002 00:52									#42
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In a warless deity game I don't typically find myself to be 'in control' at the time of ToE nor Hoover. This is around the time when I've gotten even with the important civs, usually.

	30-09-2002 03:48									#43
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I do not know anything about warless games. I have never seen one at any level from Chief to Deity. Once you are even in tech you have really won, have you not? Even if they have more of everything, it will not help them win.

	30-09-2002 05:49									#44
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Vmxa1, by "warless" I think Punkbass means what I did: not starting or joining one. My warring in the game at the top of this thread was relatively incidental.

As you know, I agree that Hoover is usually not necessary. And while I have won every deity game I've played in which I built the TOE, I wouldn't say they were definitively won... I fell behind in tech in every one of those games, and caught up only because the AI doesn't beeline for space.

I've built the GL twice now on deity, and lost it three times, with a more dedicated effort than the one you describe. One would have to be very lucky to build the GL in the capital. The only prebuild available to you is a barracks, and having mined every tile isn't going to be enough against an AI with a 40% production advantage. So you're banking on researching literature first, and then beating out a more efficient AI, one of whom probably has a prebuild. I guess you could do it, but it seems like you're completely trusting in the AI having no interest in this wonder.

	30-09-2002 11:57									#45
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Oviously I did not literally mean I did not know what was meant, it was a joke. I was merely saying I am a warmonger. I do not always get the Gl, that is why I used the term often. Anyway you made my case. The ToE can not be an exploit since it is not a death kneel if you do not get it. If I lose, it is never going to be after I get to those tech levels. When I lose, I do not get to those levels.I doubt any one else loses once they get that far either and if that is so then they are not the end all, they are more like icing on the cake.

	30-09-2002 17:02									#46
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I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but this is a thread about peaceful deity strats, so the fact that you're able to warmonger yourself into a position of superiority and the ToE is thus useless isn't really relevant.

It is also quite easy to lose at that stage in a peaceful deity game, and hard to win. The ToE is a real boon that makes both diplomatic and spaceship victories much more attainable, which are two of your main choices in a warless game.

	30-09-2002 20:54									#47
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I can certainly attest to the fact that it's easy to lose a deity SS race even after you get ToE. Civ A attacks you while civ B putters by on the tech tree to the launch. Happens all too often.

	30-09-2002 21:47									#48
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Fair enough, I was only responding to the idea that ToE is an exploit.

	04-10-2002 15:53									#49
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First, I'd like to add my congrats to Txurce for peacin' together this (and other) Deity wins. I'd been honing my Emperor peace strat prior to a walking break in the Cumbrian mountains (yum), intending to post details on my return - only to find I've been trumped in advance. Well played!

I've never even fired up a Deity game, so I can't add anything to that debate, but I treat the ToE as a key objective for peaceful power on monarch/emp, where war and extortion are not available tools for attaining tech. Is the ToE-Hoov two-step an exploit? Not in my view - certainly no more than prebuilding wonders, 'exploiting' the AI-shunned areas of the tech tree for clawback-tech-trading, or 'exploiting' the AI's strategic military limitations and propensity for self-destructive war. I see all these as at least valid and at most necessary methods of overcoming the AI's huge bonuses on the higher levels. For me an exploit is something cheap 'n cheesy like scout-resource-denial or ROP-rape.

Theseus - was your deity-OCC idea to allow flipping or not? I've never played OCC in any Civ game, and I'd like to try it sometime - but not on such a high level at first - maybe Regent. If flipping's allowed it might be fun to see how much turf Babylon can win on Deity by just sitting there building culture. Would war be a key component - to get the GL's for wonders? With Theseus, I expect it would!

	04-10-2002 20:13									#50
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Cort Haus, I'm envious of your trip to Cumbria. Yesterday I almost felt guilty in selling genetics for 270gpt and more, one turn before I built both its wonders (partly due to a prebuild). One turn later, the AI would have considered it worthless.

	10-10-2003 19:04									#51
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Thought I'd resurrect this thread because I am trying to win at Deity now. I'm not comfortable as Warmonger, so peaceful is the only way for me to try to win at Deity. Does anyone expect peaceful Deity strat to change for c3c?

	11-10-2003 04:18									#52
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Feephi, I play Deity only every now and then these days, and almost never peacefully, but this is the gist of what I suggest you try in pursuit of a (for example) diplomatic win on deity:

1. Expand quickly, building a settler factory if possible. Build your cities tighter than the classic pattern, so you don't waste good tiles for eons.
2. Build lots of workers from the start. The AI is 40% more productive than you - this is how you start evening that out.
3. Send out explorers right away. Maximizing early contacts is key to holding your own in tech.
4. Maintain a decent number of offensive units, so you can fight off an invasion.
5. Research what the AI doesn't - as a rule, the lower branch of each tech tree, but also math in the ancient era, and the printing press in the medieval. (Check Alexman's thread for more). Then trade at the right time - ideally, when you have a monopoly and the tech you want isn't one anymore.
6. Build the Lighthouse, if other continents separated from you by oceans are likely. The resulting monopoly contacts can make a huge difference. (If you have particularly productive tiles, consider building the Library - knowing the AI will race you for it. Nothing beats the Library in a peaceful deity game.)
7. Be efficient with your infrastructure. Markets, libraries and some courthouses are key. Temples and cathedrals are to be avoided unless you're religious - you shouldn't need them to maintain happiness.
8. Unless you're religious, switch governments only once, to republic.
9. Build the FP or jump the palace as soon as you have a second city core available or in the works.
10. Your ultimate targets are the wonders gained by scientific method and fission, both of which can be prebuilt. Expect to fall behind in tech early in the Middle Ages, and to come back later that era. You can be way behind, nip the AI to the ToE wonder, and basically clinch a win right there.

Note that the first nine suggestions here increase productivity - and theoretically could be accomplished in the ancient era. And don't forget that just because you're not a warmonger doesn't mean you can't occasionally benefit from kicking a dog when it's down, or giving the finger to a civ halfway across the world.

•

From what little I've read of C3C, there seem to be a few changes made expressly for the purpose of encouraging non-military strategies.

	11-10-2003 05:39									#53
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All the above plus get desperately one leader and rush either Sistine, JS Bach's, Sun Tzu's