21-09-2002 02:02									#61
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My point is that Roman facets of Britain are not due to historical continuation of Roman tradition, but due to reintroduction of ideas. Introducing Roman ideas is different to being Roman.

In terms of religion England is more akin to the Germanic (or more generally Northern European) states, which were never Romanised in the first instance.

In terms of culture, explain how England is Roman, so that I may agree or disagree.

	21-09-2002 02:05									#62
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English are more french (gallic) than they care to admit it really

	21-09-2002 02:17									#63
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From Arrian

quote: I don't really buy the whole cultural/economic imperialism argument. Starbucks, McDonalds, etc. are not run by the US government. That just doesn't compare with Roman rule.

Perhaps the Empire here is not really the US but rather the corporate system that is now currently ruling the world and, in a way, the US is its paladin.

	21-09-2002 02:22									#64
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paiktis, the French and theGallic influence on England are very different things. The Gallic is more found in everything British that is not English. The French is due to a Germanic tribe called the Normans. It might be more difficult to distinguish Gallic and Germanic things from "Before French/Normannic" and "French/Normannic" influcences - I don't know to which extent the Germanic and Gallic populations influenced each other in Britain before 1066, but in Germany there is a mixing over very large areas (mainly south and west) - even if you might suspect that one village is more celtic than the other. (My father suspects he lives now in a "celtic" village - the inhabitants don't feel less German than those of neighbouring villages).

	21-09-2002 07:57									#65
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SD, The King was Alfred the Great. As a youth, he visited Rome. As King, he encouraged education, brought scholars from the continent, and transalated certain works into Saxon. Here is a quote from Encarta.

"Alfred was a patron of learning and did much for the education of his people. He began a court school and invited British and foreign scholars, notably the Welsh monk Asser and the Irish-born philosopher and theologian John Scotus Erigena, to come there. Alfred translated such works as The Consolation of Philosophy by the Roman statesman and philosopher Boethius, The History of the World by the Spanish priest Paulus Orosius, and Pastoral Care by Pope Gregory I. Alfred's laws, the first promulgated in more than a century, were the first that made no distinction between the English and the Welsh peoples."

	21-09-2002 08:15									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Frogger, If you compare the demoralized America of the '70s with today's America, you will see that we are infinitely more powerful and confident than then. Our Amry of Vietnam had become a joke - and officer-shooting, pot-smoking, ill-disciplined rabble. We are definitely not in decline.

Hah. The foolhardy may always be taken in by modern-day Potemkin villages. You're lucky the US has pols that look at more than how you fare in brushfire conflicts to judge your strength. Immediately prior to the Viet Nam war was when the US was at its highest relative strength.

I have to remember that I'm arguing with a man living in a fantasy world (and a mathematicall inconsistent one at that)...

	21-09-2002 09:10									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Immediately prior to the Viet Nam war was when the US was at its highest relative strength.

Just prior to the Viet Nam war, the Russians were ahead of us in missles and in the space race, and had a much larger army. The Chinese had a larger army as well.

We had a larger navy and bomber force.

At that time, the Russians overran Hungary and shipped missles to Cuba; and the German communist puppet government built the Berlin wall.

Our economy was about double that of Russia, but they were closing the gap.

I think were at rough parity with the communist block then. Today, no nation or combination that I can think of, is our equal.

	21-09-2002 09:13									#68
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Sigh.

quote: Just prior to the Viet Nam war, the Russians were ahead of us in missles and in the space race, and had a much larger army. The Chinese had a larger army as well. We had a larger navy and bomber force. At that time, the Russians overran Hungary and shipped missles to Cuba; and the German communist puppet government built the Berlin wall. Our economy was about double that of Russia, but they were closing the gap. I think were at rough parity with the communist block then. Today, no nation or combination that I can think of, is our equal

No individual nation...but you are weaker in comparison to world as whole than in 1960. Breaking down the enemy is only a delaying tactic if the world is catching up to you.

Think about it dear.

	21-09-2002 09:16									#69
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And of course we see an increasing American military hegemony. It will continue to increase until the relatively weakening American economy can no longer afford to pay for it.

It's the symptom of a nation gradually growing aware that its golden age has passed them by...

	21-09-2002 15:52									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ned SD, The King was Alfred the Great. As a youth, he visited Rome. As King, he encouraged education, brought scholars from the continent, and transalated certain works into Saxon. Here is a quote from Encarta. "Alfred was a patron of learning and did much for the education of his people. He began a court school and invited British and foreign scholars, notably the Welsh monk Asser and the Irish-born philosopher and theologian John Scotus Erigena, to come there. Alfred translated such works as The Consolation of Philosophy by the Roman statesman and philosopher Boethius, The History of the World by the Spanish priest Paulus Orosius, and Pastoral Care by Pope Gregory I. Alfred's laws, the first promulgated in more than a century, were the first that made no distinction between the English and the Welsh peoples."

But how does that make England and Wales Roman though? (Alfred wasn't the King of all England, the first King of England wasn't until 50 yrs after Alfred's death)

It merely means there was Roman influence. My town has a Chinese restaurant and an Indian restaurant. They influence the society but we are not suddenly Indian or Chinese.

	21-09-2002 17:03									#71
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If we are the new Rome, our true golden age is not due for another couple of hundred years (if the time scale translates directly). Suck on it, Euros and Canucks.

	21-09-2002 17:22									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President If we are the new Rome, our true golden age is not due for another couple of hundred years (if the time scale translates directly). Suck on it, Euros and Canucks.

But if we think it in Civ3 terms... your golden age has already ended (F-15s).

And probably the time ratio had also slowed down like in Civ3... so you should start your decline... uhmmm ..... NOW


Saluti

	22-09-2002 00:09									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President If we are the new Rome, our true golden age is not due for another couple of hundred years (if the time scale translates directly). Suck on it, Euros and Canucks.

Things moved slower back then...

	22-09-2002 00:43									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin But how does that make England and Wales Roman though? (Alfred wasn't the King of all England, the first King of England wasn't until 50 yrs after Alfred's death) It merely means there was Roman influence. My town has a Chinese restaurant and an Indian restaurant. They influence the society but we are not suddenly Indian or Chinese.

I think that Alfred represents the beginning of the end of the Dark age in England. Alfred deliberately tried to bring education and culture to England from Britain and from the continent. The culture he imported was Roman - because that was the only culture that existed in Europe at the time other than the culture of rape and pillage.

	22-09-2002 00:54									#75
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You really consider Norse, Celtic and Germanic cultures - major constituents of early English/Welsh culture - to be nothing but rape and pillage?

Thats what you appear to be saying.

	22-09-2002 01:12									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin You really consider Norse, Celtic and Germanic cultures - major constituents of early English/Welsh culture - to be nothing but rape and pillage? Thats what you appear to be saying.

Yes and no. The Germans who conquered the Roman empire were little more than armed savages who were there in the Empire for one reason, rape and pillage.

The Welsh were British and probably retained a great deal of their past civilization. Asser could write fairly well for example.

By the time of Alfred, the Germans of the Continent and Britain had become Christian. So had the Irish. This brought a measure of advanced Roman culture to the barbarian, but reading and writing were still confined to the monasteries.

The Vikings are renowed for their savagery. I don't think you can call their culture anything else but the culture of conquest, rape and pillage like the Germans before them.

These are my views. What are yours?

	22-09-2002 01:30									#77
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I think that to dismiss the Viking as a band of rapists and plunderers is narrow-minded. They came up with their own mythology (Thor, Valhalla etc) and sagas* which is a sign of cultural development.

*Beowulf (although not Viking) is a good source for cultural analysis of Germanic culture.

Last edited by Dauphin on 22-09-2002 at 01:42

	22-09-2002 01:41									#78
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Well, I grant you that the Vikings did have some culture other than conquest, rape and pillage. But on the whole, the latter predominated for a very long time.

	22-09-2002 01:41									#79
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Not to mention that the Danelaw was the freest and most individualist (both usually considered the quintessential British traits in comparison to Continent) part of England for most of its existence.

	23-09-2002 03:41									#80
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I think the US's Golden age was from 1945 (end of WWII) to 1963 (start of Vietnam War). After Vietnam people wern't as afraid of the US because there was no "America is invicible" crap anymore, and the liberal attitude of the 60's and 70's got rid of the US's "Maifest Destiny" mindset. Now I think the US is starting to suffer from economic overexpansion (.COM Bust in 2000)and coruption economically (Enron, MCI-Worldcom, etc.) as well as politically (2000 election debacle and "Soft Money"), just like whenn Rome became corrupt politically in the 300's. I think the EU and China will surpass the US in economic and millitary power by 2030. Liberals will overthrow the US constitution by 2040 and reform the government. The EU and China will become the next world superpowers.

	23-09-2002 04:12									#81
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All of this talk about American imperialism is a bunch of hooie.

We have troops in many nations around the world, but they're their at the request of the locals. All you euros have to say is "leave" and we'll be outta there.
That's not the way empires operate. Remember when the Jews tried to request the evacuation of Roman troops in 70 AD? Who wound up leaving?

Likewise our multinational corporations market their wares in your countries only as long as their products continue to sell. If they couldn't make a profit they'd cut their losses and run.
Empires wouldn't do things that way. Remember how the British reacted to uppity colonists challenging their government inflicted monopolies?

The same goes with our so-called cultural influence. No one has to listen to American music or watch American movies. You can choose to exclusively listen to or watch whatever you want to.
An empire would not allow that. Take the Soviet Union for instance.

	23-09-2002 05:21									#82
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I agree with to an extent Doc.

On cultural issues, if you don't like something I agree you won't do it. But if you are inundated with US products, you are likely to react out of annoyance, like France, or have your culture insidiously taken over.

On military issues, I think political pressures are brought to bear such that American facilities are there due to the Americans wanting them to be there. If Germany point blank demanded all US forces be withdrawn from their country then the US would react in some way.

Regards corporations, I'm sure you'll agree that consumer power is not enough to prevent the presence of corporation. US companies have a strong supplier positions and can outcompete domestic companies due to their size.

Not saying these are bad things, per se, just the US using its strong position to force its views/wares/culture.

	23-09-2002 12:37									#83
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"All you euros have to say is "leave" and we'll be outta there. That's not the way empires operate. Remember when the Jews tried to request the evacuation of Roman troops in 70 AD? Who wound up leaving?"

Well if we said "leave" the US would try to pressure us out of the idea, but you are right as the US can't really do anything about it.

However what's the story with that base in Puerto Rico ? And Guantanamo ? And any 3rd world country where the government can be quite easily overthrown ?

"Likewise our multinational corporations market their wares in your countries only as long as their products continue to sell."

True. Also the US is importing 500 billion $ more in goods than it exports every year. Americans are getting japanized and germanized (at least when it comes to cars).

But again the US has tried extorting favours for its well-connected companies. This doesn't work as well as it used to as the EU is big enough on trade issues that the Washington boys finally understood that we can hurt you as much as you can hurt us.

Maybe it's best to describe the US as an Amateur Empire.

	23-09-2002 13:18									#84
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I can see it all now. Schroeder freezes diplomatic relations. Then he demands that we withdraw our troops. Then he begins developing nuclear weapons....

The US, UK and Russia confer....

	23-09-2002 13:38									#85
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Helms demanded a troop withdrawal.

Never thought I'd agree with that nutbag.

	23-09-2002 14:09									#86
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Well Roland, I am going to install a picture of Schroeder on my toilet so I can show him what I think of him.

	23-09-2002 14:16									#87
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If you bother that much, fine.

	23-09-2002 15:35									#88
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quote: [SIZE=1] "Likewise our multinational corporations market their wares in your countries only as long as their products continue to sell." True. Also the US is importing 500 billion $ more in goods than it exports every year. Americans are getting japanized and germanized (at least when it comes to cars).

In the words of DanS, "the Brits are taking over the US!" (about CVS Pharmacy, a British 24/7 grocery chain)

	23-09-2002 19:53									#89
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Nice and entertaining article.

I guess the Cold War is an analogy for the Phoenician Wars against Carthage

but 9/11? That was a silly comparison. 9/11 was The Burning Of Rome, or at least we are very close to TBOR. Dubya is either Nero or Calligula (sp?).

Rise or decline, though? If Bush = Nero, the empire has some great days ahead. the Bush Regime will only be a minor setback for the nation, just like nero's rule.

	23-09-2002 20:06									#90
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it's 11/9

btw Nero wasn't always that bad, in the beginning he was a good emperor... and we can't say Bush ever did something good

(btw not only Nero did some really shitty things as an emperor you know, the other fellows weren't really 'nice chaps' as well ...it only depends from whose view you're looking)