03-05-2001 13:47									#31
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Change in Dutcheese game:
- Edgar, leader of Germans left the game and was replace by Blackice.

Blackice, do you want to be rated ?

	03-05-2001 13:57									#32
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Love Conquers? Turn 109.

1. Mobius
2. Rick Elkins
3. St Jon
4. King Thor
5. (Keygen)
6. Stavros

	03-05-2001 14:49									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Lungmatch 2.2 Turn 29

1. Swissy
2. Keygen
3. Solver

	03-05-2001 19:14									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks Birdman for trying to make the formula better. What formula are you using to calculate the ratings? The numbers that I show for ratings are the BEFORE ADJUSTMENT ratings of the players. The Delta is the change. And you're right, I don't show the new rating after adjustment, I know that is confusing, but I thought it would clutter up an already complex looking report.

Edit: I see what you mean now Birdman. Yes we could do that, and maybe that would be fairer. I would have to BACK RATE all of the ratings before commencing with this and write a new program, (mucho trabajo -- much work ). If we have a strong concensus to do this, I could muster up the effort, I think.

The formulas I use have nothing to do with tennis. They are just straight forward formulas which cause a fair "bell shaped" rating adjustment dependant upon the difference in players' ratings. Here they are again. I hope this alleviates your skepticism of the fairness of these formulas.

Ratings Formulae

	03-05-2001 20:25									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

"The formulas I use have nothing to do with tennis."


http://www21.addr.com/~quinns/wtr_info_formulas.html

Oh sorry since they looked exactly like these ones for the Tennis I just assumed sorry.

And personally again I see more than just the way it is scored as the problem. How will JWPP for instance play Klair or some other top ranked player. Will I ever play a newbie again no obviously if I play for points no it would be rather dumb would it not? So I have chosen to play for fun that way it really only matters that I have fun. Which I am
I can then continue to play newbies meet new people and not get miffed or discouraged.

Again I see no proof to contradict that if the win, win, loss as per the example of the last rating will change. If these games stay as they are I will be in last place before long. For winning two and losing one lol
Or the Keygen game example I gave is extremely possible again I see no proof to contradict it as yet.

BTW QUINNS, SOLVER, KEYGEN and the rest don't get me wrong GREAT JOB! I mean that sincerely

This PBEM has provided great fun and I have cyber met some great peeps

Ok Barbaque and kids time too nice a day to be inside

	04-05-2001 09:04									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Alright Blackice. I will not continue to try to convince you, though I value your opinion on this system. I will apply your penalty for switching from rated to unrated, (via the Elimination Rule above), and remove you from the list, per your request.

I still believe that our CTP PBEM Rating System is much fairer than the GameLeague system regarding drops in ratings. For example, a player rated 20.000 in our system could NEVER lose anymore than 1/2 a point to someone rated even as low as 1.000. That is a maximum drop of only 2.5% in ratings for a losing in a single game to a single player. Not true in GameLeague where a 1500 rated player could potentially lose up to 300 points, 20% of their total by playing, and losing to, a lower rated player.



Edit: And Ice, when I said they have nothing to do with tennis, I meant that the formulas are not based upon tennis. Yes, I used the same formulas, (that I created originally -- i.e. I personally own and developed World Tennis Ratings), for the tennis ratings site as well, but they have nothing to do with tennis, per se, and are strictly based upon mathematical probability, only.

[This message has been edited by quinns (edited May 03, 2001).]

	04-05-2001 09:24									#37
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I like the system, and think it's fair. But I repeat, nothing can give an absolutely precise skill representation.

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

	03-05-2001 23:49									#40
	Got spare money?

Then, who says that we have to use (we do) the exact fomular as in tennis?

I mean, in tennis all plays one to one. Here we play one to ?? (at least two and up to severn). We might only have to ajust one of the "permanent" values in the formulas. It is not the same playing one to one as playing one to ??.

And I'm happy to see, that Quinns have "accepted" the substaional of my mail. But to change how we are doing, that is a something different and very difficult to handle.

	04-05-2001 01:05									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Alright Birdman. I'm glad you're happy! And I'm glad you realize that it would be alot of work to change, not to mention the potential of messing the whole thing up.

The formula isn't a "tennis" formula, it is my formula that I created to use to handle "any" type of competition rating, in "any" game. The formula is generic for use with all games. I made it up all by me ownself, (admittedly, based roughly upon the International Chess Rating System). I didn't take it from the "tennis ratings manual".

	04-05-2001 03:26									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good job Quinns

Nice work

	04-05-2001 04:35									#43
	Tired of ads?

I appreciate that Quinns thanks

Food for though final word here

GL

1500 wagers 300 20% rank 22
1000 wagers 200 20% rank 54

500 points on the table, 1500 lost to 1000

1000 gets 335-200=135+=1135 new rank 39
1500 gets 165-300=135-=1365 new rank 28

Make it up in one game, no biggy

Reversed, wager same

1500 wins 335-300=35+
1000 lost 165-200=35-

100 points on the line verses 35 nope, yes make it up in one game. Really though the win points do very little change to rank so why bother? choice.

1500 vs 1500 won 300-402=102+
1500 vs 1500 lost 300-198=102-

102 vs 102 ya why not?

Again make it up in one game, possible shift in rank.

You would not play for points, many 1000 point players The rating system is focused on playing people about your same level. Makes for more even win/loss ratio. Plus you would have more opportunity to play people your own or higher ranking online.

Now as we do it more players;


#1 1500 wagers 20% 300 rank 22
#2 1000 wagers 200 54
#3 2000 wagers 400 11
#4 868 wagers 173.6 101
#5 976 wagers 195.2 56

Total wagers 1268.8

#5 wins 520.3-195.2=325.1+ 1301 new rank 27
#2 second 342.6-200=142.6+ 1143 39
#4 third 215.7-173.6=36.7+ 905 89
#3 forth 126.8-400=273.1- 1727 11
#1 last 63.4-300=236.6- 1263 31

Reverse the bottom two, the two higest players for bottom spot you will see that the 1500 point guy stays about the same rank too. The only one that really loses is "The loser" This is exactly why you see top GL players playing three peeps games or four with newbies included.

GL points system 5 player game similar ranks as PBEM, everyone goes up or stays about the same except the loser. Justifiable I would say but it does happen ask Flames. heh or me



[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 03, 2001).]

	04-05-2001 19:24									#44
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Alright Ice. Sounds like you are happy with GameLeague's system. No problem. To each their own! Wagering points causes top ranked players to shun lower ranked players. You have admitted that. I am far from convinced of the merit of their system -- for whatever that matters!

Quinns

	05-05-2001 15:09									#45
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Good said Quinns. I like the inability of player number 1 gaining many points by beating player number 30 and vice versa. But, number 30 beating number 1 will go up, and that's fair. Good system .

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

	05-05-2001 16:24									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Islands 69 PowerGraph:
1. Frazer
2. Quinns
3. Kralj
4. King Thor
5. Of course, Solver.

Huh.

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

	06-05-2001 07:07									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No. Not "of course". You just got a slow start. I'm sure you will rocket to the top soon!

	07-05-2001 03:17									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

*** RATINGS UPDATED ***

Mobius back on top again! Good on ya, mate!

Provisional flag added as requested by members.

Blackice changed from "rated" to "unrated" status in 7 rated games.

** Notice. Please, from now on, I would kindly ask all members to read, understand, and agree to, the rating system rules (posted above) before agreeing to be rated in any game. This system isn't as automatic as I would like, and it is a bit of a pain for me to eliminate those of you who change your minds about being in a rated game. (No offense, Blackice, just trying to make my life easier )

	07-05-2001 05:12									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No offence taken Quinns

And yes I do like the GL system especially in GL multiple player games (Like PBEM) where "Top Rated Players" play newbies mostly, and offen.

I do like their system, It does not chop off your head for sticking your neck out. As pointed out in the above example generally only the loser loses in multi player games.

I did say generaly higher ranked players don't play lower ranked players one to one. We rarely play one to one here mostly multiple player. And the example above shows the difference in the two systems in multi-player mode.

Thanks for removing me back to the games, sorry for the work

Now lets see the "Top Ranked Players" here challenge some newbies heh

Many will surprise you

Ya gotta love this game
[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 07, 2001).]

	07-05-2001 12:42									#50
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Lungmatch 3.2 Powergraph Ratings
Turn 19

1. Birdman
2. The True Demosthenes
3. Mobius


The original post was incorrect.

------------------
Cariad,
Demosthenes.
_____
www.polthought.freeserve.co.uk
[This message has been edited by The True Demosthenes (edited May 09, 2001).]

	09-05-2001 13:58									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

turn 29 for youngbloods
berXpert
Kralj Matjaz
Blackice
420
Darth Viper
Pheonixcager

	09-05-2001 15:28									#52
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Lung's Fast PBEM turn 169:

Lung
BirdMan
Stavros
Jon
Paul

	09-05-2001 18:59									#53
	Inflate your Upload Space

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com
[This message has been edited by Solver (edited May 11, 2001).]

	10-05-2001 09:46									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Solver, you must have mixed some civs up. Here's the correct powergraph ranking for turn 59 of "Do Some PBEM":

BirdMan
(Blackice)
(Stavros)
Paul
Solver
Krash

	10-05-2001 00:05									#55
	Support Apolyton

Thanks Paul, that would have been a pain to fix.

Solver, please delete your post above to prevent me from double posting this result. Thanks.

	10-05-2001 01:58									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Youngblood Gathering Turn 19

1. berXpert
2. 420
3. (Blackice)
4. Saddam
5. Yeti
6. Phoenixcager

Quinns, change Steve5304 to Saddam and Vitlog to Vitolg.
Thanks

	10-05-2001 02:34									#57
	Support Apolyton

Monkey 1 - turn 199:

Swissy
Paul
Slamp
(Max Webster)
(BirdMan)
Yeti
(NukeBoy)
(Fraze)

	10-05-2001 04:31									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanks for the corrections Keygen. Done.

	10-05-2001 05:02									#59
	Inflate your Upload Space

Lung leaps from 4th to 1st 'with a bullet' in Lung's FAST! pbem It's amazing what a little war can do for your powergraph

It's good to see the world's oldest CTP pbem game finally approach the 200 turn mark Wow! And it only took two-and-a-half years, too! Go, Monkey1! Go you good thing!!

	11-05-2001 03:26									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

High Voltage Turn 19

1. berXpert
2. (Blackice)
3. jpww
4. PN
5. Dugrik
6. eohian