24-09-2002 23:17									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae First, assuming the other civs are as secluded as you are, they should be researching tech at more or less the same rate as you are (since they can't engage in a tech loop).

According to the game description, they aren't all just as secluded, although they are still more secluded than normal. So if you're playing on a level where you have a hard time matching the AIs in research even in a normal game, there is a definite risk of being out-researched by one or more AIs in this type of set-up.

quote: After that, I suggest checking out which techs have depreciated the most: these are the ones that take the least amount of time to research, indicating that most of the other civs have discovered them already.

Another civ's knowing a tech only changes its cost to you if you have contact with that civ.

quote: 4. Pre-buildling Long before you get to build Caravels, you'll be itching to build some Military units and conquer someone. I recommend giving in to this feeling. By the time you build your fleet of Caravels, you should have masses of your best military units, Settlers and Workers ready to go out and exploit the world. The loss of gold per turn under Republic due to (admittedly idle) military forces is nothing compared to the time lost building an army on the fly (this is debatable).

Tempting, but there are major advantages to waiting for cavalry to start engaging in major military operations. Getting Leonardo's if possible, pre-building horsemen (which means deliberately avoiding Chivalry), and upgrading to cavalry can provide truly overwhelming force against any AI that hasn't discovered Nationalism yet. And cavalry have a high enough survival rate that you can replace them about as quickly as they die, making a string of conquests more practical if you have time before Nationalism.

quote: I recommend against building the FP on our original continent. The landmass is small enough that even your most "remote" cities will suffer from relatively little corruption. Rather, save the FP from another continent you plan to conquer after you explore the world.

Unless the capital starts off in a perfect location, building the FP in a central location on the home continent and using a leader to move the Palace later leaves you with less corruption in the core area throughout the game. The only down side is that if you don't get a leader, moving the palace is for all practical purposes impossible while building a FP takes "only" 100 turns (if I remember right).

Nathan

	24-09-2002 23:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae 5. Forbidden Palace I recommend against building the FP on our original continent. The landmass is small enough that even your most "remote" cities will suffer from relatively little corruption. Rather, save the FP from another continent you plan to conquer after you explore the world. Dominae

The FP was a delima for me. I decided to build it right next my Palace with the intention of moving my Palace to another land mass. The FP city can Flip. Even tho this is not common, it is a risk since the other land mass will have an established culture to say the least. I'm hoping to GA on my 1st invasion, get a leader for the Palace and hold 2 continents and choice a win to aim for from there.

I decided against making the home island a double core. I just couldn't pack enough cities on it to justify trying to win out without further expansion.

	25-09-2002 00:45									#33
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nbarclay, thanks for your insightful comments, as usual. I'll say a bit about each one.

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay According to the game description, they aren't all just as secluded, although they are still more secluded than normal. So if you're playing on a level where you have a hard time matching the AIs in research even in a normal game, there is a definite risk of being out-researched by one or more AIs in this type of set-up.

Good point. I guess I didn't read the setup as closely as I could have, instead just relying on the map specs. However, my hope was (and as this scenario shows) that a focused human player can remain competitive in Science, when the AIs aren't trading too heavily.

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Another civ's knowing a tech only changes its cost to you if you have contact with that civ.

Now this is interesting. I'm sure you know more about this than I do; I'm just going on my personal (non-rigorous) observations. Once I peaked in Science (after Construction), I could swear that the more expensive techs were still getting easier to research (Monarchy, Polytheism, Currency, etc.). While I was researching the cheap 4-turn techs (The Wheel, etc.), the other techs got progressively easier. If you're right, this was a really bad case of wishful thinking!

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Tempting, but there are major advantages to waiting for cavalry to start engaging in major military operations. Getting Leonardo's if possible, pre-building horsemen (which means deliberately avoiding Chivalry), and upgrading to cavalry can provide truly overwhelming force against any AI that hasn't discovered Nationalism yet. And cavalry have a high enough survival rate that you can replace them about as quickly as they die, making a string of conquests more practical if you have time before Nationalism.

Waiting for Cavalry is certainly a good strategy, but I have to argue that attacking early is also sound. I don't build very big invasion forces (usually around 30 units), so under a Republic I don't lose that much Gold (although it is significant, I admit). But, those 30 units can do quite a bit of harm (and can get promoted or produce GLs) in the time that I'm attacking and you're staying back. In my current game, I'm just upgrading my Knights now (with Leonardo's help), and I've conquered the English and large chunk of the Greek continent (including their endless defenses).

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Unless the capital starts off in a perfect location, building the FP in a central location on the home continent and using a leader to move the Palace later leaves you with less corruption in the core area throughout the game. The only down side is that if you don't get a leader, moving the palace is for all practical purposes impossible while building a FP takes "only" 100 turns (if I remember right).

By leaving the Palace where it is (or if you just jump it, which is also an option), all you need to get is a GL to rush your FP. Building the FP on your main continent costs you a lot of shields, and you still need to get a GL later on to move your palace. But for this scenario, I believe you're right: building the FP is "something to do" for one of your cities, and it actually does reduce corruption (slightly) until you find/conquer a nice continent. My original thinking was simply that it wasn't worth the hassle when your home continent is so small.

Again, thanks for the input.


Dominae

	25-09-2002 00:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky The FP city can Flip. Even tho this is not common, it is a risk since the other land mass will have an established culture to say the least.

I didn't know this. I usually place the FP when a war is nearly over, but it's interesting to know that I could still theoretically lose it. Thanks for pointing this out.

quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky I decided against making the home island a double core. I just couldn't pack enough cities on it to justify trying to win out without further expansion.

That was my reasoning as well.


Dominae

	25-09-2002 01:06									#35
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Dominae, while you were out, there has been a fair amount of discussion about the Palace and FP. I've been convinced, at least, that it is often good policy to use the FP to maintain your core cities, and then, if possible, use your Palace as your forward 'tool.'

Not only can the Palace city not be flipped, it dramatically increases the chance of a far-off enemy city flipping to you. And, when appropriate, you can move the Palace repeatedly, whereas the FP stays where it is built.

Catt in particular gave a great example of this (I have no idea where).

	25-09-2002 01:52									#36
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Wow, "fair amount" is an understatement: your reasoning about the FP/Palace question is excellent (although, as you say, the credit may not go wholly to you). I'm an instant convert: I'm going to try it out now in the AU-106 game.

nbarclay, forget my earlier comments about the FP; I never considered how useful building the Palace "away from home" could really be.


Dominae

	25-09-2002 02:18									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Now this is interesting. I'm sure you know more about this than I do; I'm just going on my personal (non-rigorous) observations. Once I peaked in Science (after Construction), I could swear that the more expensive techs were still getting easier to research (Monarchy, Polytheism, Currency, etc.). While I was researching the cheap 4-turn techs (The Wheel, etc.), the other techs got progressively easier. If you're right, this was a really bad case of wishful thinking!

Obviously, the other techs will continue to get cheaper (in terms of turns of research required) for as long as you continue to build new science improvements and as long as your cities continue to grow. I tend to mine a lot more than irrigate, so even with the pyramids, most of my cities had only just reached size 6 before aqueducts became available, and didn't hit size 12 until somewhere in the middle of the medieval era (pre contact). So my science production continued to grow continously from the start until mid-medieval. You may have done things differently, but if your game was similar to mine in this respect, then that is the most likely explanation of apparent tech devaluation. What research has been done suggests that the only reduction in research cost depends on the number of civs you have contact with that know a tech.