21-09-2002 15:26									#31
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I have been programming with something called 'Progress' for years now.
It is specialised at relational databases.

	21-09-2002 15:53									#32
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Asher, I guessed that. But Waterloo has a nice connotation also.

Chegitz, I guess C# is again an attempt of Micro$oft to control the (this time) compiler market by providing again something slightly incompatible.

Jon, as long as they have some sort of backwards compatibility, the thing is necessarily screwed. I have the strong impression that with all the effort put into optimizing and debugging original FORTRAN you could have designed two or three much better languages. The only merit of FORTRAN is being the first. Making FORTRAN into something which has been achieved by Pascal, Algol, or C thirty years ago is simply wasted energy.

	21-09-2002 17:33									#33
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I only know two different languages:

Visual Basic: I like it, but I really doubt it's the best

Java: I don't like it. I have only been working with it, for a couple of weeks though. At the moment we haven't been working with graphical interface, and because of the lack of graphic, I get the feeling it's useless...can't wait til we begin such...

	21-09-2002 18:37									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller have you or anyone looked at modern fortran?

I learned FORTRAN 77 and FORTRAN 90, and they're both crap compared to OO. Imperative programming's a dinosaur. (IIRC, FORTRAN 77 still made you line everything up in column 8. )

	21-09-2002 19:11									#35
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Those are procedural languages. (Not column 8, either, it's column 7, with column 6 being the continuation character).

Anyhow, there is no one best language, I thought all geeks know this by now. It's like asking whether a screwdriver or a hammer is a better tool.

The language should fit the task on hand, thus previous attempts in developing programmming languages to end all other programming languages ended up in failures: PL/1 being the first and Ada being the second.

If you write software for microcontrollers, you use assembly, full stop. C is a nice system level programming language but it has been widely misused, creating software with almost untracable bugs.

Neither C++ nor C# are real high level programming languages. What's worse, C# is yet another MS attempt in the "embrace, extend, extinguish" department. Real high level programming languages are ones such as Smalltalk, Java, Pascal, Oberon, Prolog, and APL.

Fortran is unsurprassed if you need number crunching. It is the only programming language with a built-in complex number data type IIRC.

Lisp is great for doing symbolic stuff, and Snobol excels in string manipulation.

So you must fit your tool to the task on hand, as always.

Glonk,

I thought you don't like operator overloads?


Jon,

Fortran is up to 2000 now? Cool.


Che,

Tickle? Eek.


Adalbertus,

Not anymore AFAIK. Changing the value of constants, that is.

	21-09-2002 19:32									#36
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I like Java. I'm quite new to programming, so I don't know about C etc. I'm moving into them when I get my Java rolling smoothly. I'm not experienced with other so it's hard for me to say, but at least Java is quite simple and fairly gentle to newbies like me.
I've also been doing some stuff with Python, I absolutely love it.
I'm hoping to get better, and I'm learning almost religiously. If I skip a day without learning something, I actually feel bad . Have...to...keep...moving....
It was quite a shock how addicting this is!

	21-09-2002 19:38									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Fortran is unsurprassed if you need number crunching. It is the only programming language with a built-in complex number data type IIRC.

Mathematica's got one, but unfortunately it's only interpreted.

	21-09-2002 19:53									#38
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Pekka,

OOP (object oriented programming) is a lot easier for newbies to handle than those who have been doing procedural programming for some time. It's actually more natural to think OO but old habits die hard


loin,

Mathematica is a stranger to me

	21-09-2002 19:53									#39
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quote: Those are procedural languages.

FORTRAN77 smelled a bit like a procedural language, FORTRAN90 seems to be one, more or less, but 20 years too late.
I successfully changed 2 into 3 or 4 on FORTRAN77 when I attended the numerical mathematics course in 1991. So it probably changed only with FORTRAN90, which to me looks like a revived dinosaur. If you can try this, I'd be curious to know.

quote: It's like asking whether a screwdriver or a hammer is a better tool

I'd always opt for the screwdriver. Much more potential for unconventional use.

You're right, there are languages which fit one purpose better than others. On the other hand, C, Pascal, Basic, Modula-2, and Algol are quite equivalent. C has a slightly better support for bit fiddling, Basic for Spaghetti code, Modula-2 for modular programming (what C tries to imitate with the preprocessor), and Algol for people who read backwards, but most of the code can be translated 1:1. The choice between these languages is mainly a matter of taste, and non-technical issues, such as support, existing libraries etc. - FORTRAN77 already would have problems with recursions, which was a major drawback, IMO. So here we are dealing with different screwdrivers.
I see real differences to languages like OOP languages, Lisp, Prolog. So these are the things I would compare to hammer, saw etc.

P.S. I once looked into Cobol and had only the impression "weird". It seems or seemed to have been widely used in business applications. Is there someone who can point out the essentials of this language?

	21-09-2002 20:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Mathematica is a stranger to me

It's a bit like a hybrid of APL and LISP (and some procedural loops thrown in for lazy programmers or for people who like to write legible code), but with some extremely powerful mathematics functions built into it. (F'rinstance, if you want to solve PDE's then you've usually got to write your own program for it, but you can solve ODE's with Mathematica's built-in functions.)

	21-09-2002 20:17									#41
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Urban Ranger, I bet you know what you're talking about.
About a year ago when I got interested about learning how to program, I did lots of research what language to use as a first one. I have no regrets. I'm still interested to learn C, C++, but I won't run into it just yet, I want to develop my skills in Java first. I think it's better to be good at one language, than know 6 different languages little.
Besides, it should be easier to learn new languages when you know the basics and have some experience with other language anyway. I found it easy to start with Python when I had experience with Java. It was just a matter of days when I got to the same level with Python, that it took my almost 5 months with Java.
But I'm still a bit newbie, eager to learn more and put my skills in use some day .

I greet you oh big Gurus!

	21-09-2002 21:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus You're right, there are languages which fit one purpose better than others. On the other hand, C, Pascal, Basic, Modula-2, and Algol are quite equivalent. C has a slightly better support for bit fiddling, Basic for Spaghetti code, Modula-2 for modular programming (what C tries to imitate with the preprocessor), and Algol for people who read backwards, but most of the code can be translated 1:1. The choice between these languages is mainly a matter of taste, and non-technical issues, such as support, existing libraries etc. - FORTRAN77 already would have problems with recursions, which was a major drawback, IMO.

Mostly that way, but there are also other factors such as speed, reusability (e.g. Modula-2's modules), type checking, pointer arithematic (the question is, why do you want to do it?), etc. And Algol is Algol

Still, Fortran is the number one choice for scientific computing.

quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus P.S. I once looked into Cobol and had only the impression "weird". It seems or seemed to have been widely used in business applications. Is there someone who can point out the essentials of this language?

Data processing. It is very good at opening a file or a bunch of files, read some stuff from them, and produce some output, such as reports or other files. It's used for applications such as payroll before the advent of modern databases. Okay, it is still used for those applications. For what it is designed to do COBOL is decent.

	21-09-2002 21:10									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka About a year ago when I got interested about learning how to program, I did lots of research what language to use as a first one. I have no regrets. I'm still interested to learn C, C++, but I won't run into it just yet, I want to develop my skills in Java first. I think it's better to be good at one language, than know 6 different languages little.

That's true. The fundamental thing is not how to write the actual code, but how to derive the algorithm to solve your current task. That is 90% of the work. Doing the acutal coding is just the finishing touch.

The problem most people have with programming is they dive right in to start writing code, without going through a detailed analysis and design stage. This way it is extremely easy to overlook the borderline cases that cause crashes and bugs. Borderline cases are things such as when the program is expecting an input but is getting null, or the input is different from expected.

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Besides, it should be easier to learn new languages when you know the basics and have some experience with other language anyway. I found it easy to start with Python when I had experience with Java. It was just a matter of days when I got to the same level with Python, that it took my almost 5 months with Java. But I'm still a bit newbie, eager to learn more and put my skills in use some day .

That's because they are both OOP languages. You'll have problems with languages in other categories (other than procedural) such as logic programming. APL is also odd for most people

	21-09-2002 21:12									#44
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger It's a bit like a hybrid of APL and LISP (and some procedural loops thrown in for lazy programmers or for people who like to write legible code), but with some extremely powerful mathematics functions built into it. (F'rinstance, if you want to solve PDE's then you've usually got to write your own program for it, but you can solve ODE's with Mathematica's built-in functions.)

Can it also handle symbolic stuff or is it limited to numerical calculations?

	21-09-2002 21:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Can it also handle symbolic stuff

Yup. That's the LISP-ish aspect of it--its functional programming aspect is more reminiscent of APL, IMO.

	21-09-2002 21:18									#46
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Interesting. Last I have seen it was in the labs of my alma mater. It seems to be quite limited to academia.

	21-09-2002 21:19									#47
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Why isn't this a checkbox poll?

	21-09-2002 21:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Interesting. Last I have seen it was in the labs of my alma mater. It seems to be quite limited to academia.

It's excellent for theoretical work (analysis or whatever), but the fact that it's interpreted makes it pretty much useless in terms of straight number-crunching. It's also proprietary (and expensive), which gives Common LISP a major advantage over it.

	21-09-2002 21:27									#49
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Expensive is right. I look at Wolfram Research's website and my eyeballs popped out.

	21-09-2002 23:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus Chegitz, I guess C# is again an attempt of Micro$oft to control the (this time) compiler market by providing again something slightly incompatible.

"slightly incompatible"? It's a new language, an ISO standard (and the runtime is also an ISO standard). What are they making it slightly incompatible with, since it's its own language? The syntax is very close to C++, but that's because that's the standard industry language and most people prefer that format -- it makes the language easier to learn for most people.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Neither C++ nor C# are real high level programming languages. What's worse, C# is yet another MS attempt in the "embrace, extend, extinguish" department. Real high level programming languages are ones such as Smalltalk, Java, Pascal, Oberon, Prolog, and APL.

I'm beginning to think you don't know much about what C# really is -- in what way is C# not a real high level programming language like Java? Is it because you have the OPTION of using unsafe and pointer operations? By default, and what they recommend you use, is very similar to Java. It compiles to an intermediate language, the runtime environment executes the program, has garbage collection, etc -- in what way is that form of it not a high level language? C# is great because you can use the high level language, or if you need to (for speed purposes), you can make it a native mid-level language like C++.

	22-09-2002 00:49									#51
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I only know C,PascalFc,Modula2,Basic,C++ and Java. I have saw a little about VisualBasic and Ada. As far as I know, Java is the better language.

But I don't know about C#. I'm going to download 'Thinking on C#' in order to get a touch. But in this moment I like more clarity than speed-optimization. One of things that I love of Java is that Java is much more simple and clean that C++. I don't say that C# is wrong, but in this moment, I don't like too much unsafe pointer operations or operator overloading...

(Just my opinion)

	22-09-2002 00:53									#52
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I think reading input in Java is needlessly complicated myself. The pointer operations in C# are discouraged, but are available for those who need them. If you don't want to use them, don't use them...

It's nice to be able to do real pointer-sorts though.

Last edited by Asher on 22-09-2002 at 00:59

	22-09-2002 01:04									#53
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When I move from C++ to Java, I firmly believe that all pointers operations must be allowed. But I grew up to understand that on Java are not necesary.

Well, reading input is not simple on Java, I agree on that. An also, AWT was a bad library. But Swing seems to be much better

Do you know a good free book about C#?

	22-09-2002 01:07									#54
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Nope, don't know a good free book. There's lots of tutorials on the web though.

I know that pointer operations aren't necessary (Java's references sort of work), but it's still nice to have the option -- sometimes they are not necessary but allow the program to run faster and more efficiently when used. You just gotta be really careful.

	22-09-2002 01:11									#55
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I like C++, I love Java, and I loathe Lisp.

(setf DarthVeda '(Suicide) )

!

	22-09-2002 01:12									#56
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In fact, I was on a debate with a friend that study Computer Science (I study Telecommunications Engineering) about it's better

1) To forbide unsafe operations (as you say, the can be more effeciente) and sacrify efficency on security altar

2) To allow unsafe operations (but It can translate on a longer writing and test time, because programer will use the unsafe operations when they don't need) After all, you know that programs always missused the language features

What do you think about that?

	22-09-2002 01:17									#57
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Depends on who's responsible for using the language. An unsafe language isn't very good for teaching and if I were the boss then I wouldn't trust an entry-level programmer to use it properly (assuming that it's important that the intended program be finished and debugged on time), but if I'm giving the assignment to a guru (or if I'm a guru) and if speed really is important then I'll prefer the unsafe language. It's like any other language decision--sometimes you want one language, and sometimes you want another. Sometimes you want safety, sometimes you want speed.

	22-09-2002 01:39									#58
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav In fact, I was on a debate with a friend that study Computer Science (I study Telecommunications Engineering) about it's better 1) To forbide unsafe operations (as you say, the can be more effeciente) and sacrify efficency on security altar 2) To allow unsafe operations (but It can translate on a longer writing and test time, because programer will use the unsafe operations when they don't need) After all, you know that programs always missused the language features What do you think about that?

I don't see the point to forbidding unsafe operations in a programming language. I don't see what's wrong with including the capabilities in the language, since a lot of applications require efficiency over security. C# includes the operations, but makes you declare them unsafe before you ever use them -- and it's discouraged unless you really need to do it.

Some people like pointers, sometimes they need them for the problem they're solving -- absolutely forbidding their use is wrong, IMO. If you don't wanna use them, don't use them -- C# functions similarly to Java in that respect, except you CAN go a bit lower level if you need to.

	22-09-2002 02:50									#59
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Java's great. C++ is ok, but I prefer not to use it..

I've been hearing that C# is the best of both worlds, though.

I probably ought to learn Fortran one of these days.

	22-09-2002 03:01									#60
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Darn, you left my FAVORITE off the list.

SAS

A great statistical language, with tons of functional Procedures and Functions for the LAZY (efficient) programmer. And it's a full body language for times when you can't make the procedures do exactly what you want.

IT's great for handling all types of input and output.

And it's been around for a long time and has a huge user community so their web site has a wealth of help if you have any problems.
I've been using it for over 20 years, and it still rocks.

RAH