24-09-2002 23:50									#31
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I would be shocked, SHOCKED I SAY! She has always been a person of honor. Her word is her bond and all that!

	24-09-2002 23:52									#32
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The reason the economy sux, IMHO, is lack of confidence in Bushs leadership vis a vis his economic policy, plus voters perception he's in the fat cats' pockets. We should be out of this recession by now, but Bush's leadership is sowing too much uncertainty.

All the same, I hope gore doesnt' run. His strenght is in acting as more of a party elder. time for some new blood.

	25-09-2002 00:04									#33
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That was a muddled speech. All of the conclusions are based on the false premise that we have decided to act unilaterally with regard to Iraq.

However, I have been surprised that there have been few Democratic foreign policy heavyweights in this discussion. If Madeleine Albright is the heaviest the Dems have, then this is pathetic. In light of this absence, I guess a Gore punching bag for the Bush administration is not a bad outcome.

	25-09-2002 00:22									#34
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This isn't about the election of 2004. This is about the election of 2002. Since Gore isn't running, he can hammer away at the popular president on a popular agenda and try and show that Bush has blown it. He's not risking a seat and may be helping his parties prospects of picking up the House and solidifying its control of the Senate.

This topic is the one topic on which the Republicans can win, but it's too iffy for someone to risk their seat challenging. If Gore can show the public that the emperor's new cloths are a fantasy, then the Repulbican's lose their one advantage in the mid-term elections.

It's actually a very crafty political ploy. If it doesn't resonate with the public, the Democrats can always claim Gore doesn't represent them.

	25-09-2002 00:30									#35
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But it does put them in the postion of now having to publicly declare there support for Gore and his policy pronouncements, and if there is one thing they don't want to do is have to make a decision.

	25-09-2002 00:33									#36
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They can publicaly chastise Gore without completely repudiating him. Look at Leibermann (though he subsequently backed down when Gore rose to the challenge). While I do not in any way support the man, I am impressed by his growing political acumen.

	25-09-2002 00:38									#37
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By opposing the desires of some 68% of the US voters? That ain't acumen your smellin'. And if anybody cared to compare his statements in 1998 about Saddam and the problems posed by Iraq you could call his speech a badly calculated poliical gambit. He probably thinks that the only chance he has in 04 is to have the US fail with Iraq so he can capture the "See, I told you so" position. If we succeed he just hopes for the short term memory lapses the US electorate in known for. Personally I think it's a tad disgraceful a poitician pinning his election hopes on the US failing in a war, but then Al Gore hasn't exactly shown the same kind of statesmanship his running mate LIebermann has at least demonstrated.

	25-09-2002 00:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He's still burdened by the shadow of Tawanna Brawley.

Al Sharpton is burdened by... Al Sharpton.

	25-09-2002 00:40									#39
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He's currently the front runner among the Democrats seeking the Presidency.

	25-09-2002 00:44									#40
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Heh. That's the problem with Washington, D.C.: Too many politicians, too few statesmen and women. It shows in a good deal of our policies, both domestic and foreign, whether we like to admit it or not.

That said, Iraq is a threat. And no matter what we do, the outcome won't be cut-and-dried.

I get the impression that Rumsfeld and Cheney think a fairly easy victory is possible in Iraq, and that arrogance could cost the military lots of lives and equipment. It won't be another Vietnam by any means, I think, nor shall it be like Desert Storm in 1991.

And if the British government's assessment of Iraq's WMD capabilities is correct, at least some U.S., et al., deaths will be due to the use of chemical and biological weapons.

Gatekeeper

	25-09-2002 00:46									#41
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch He's currently the front runner among the Democrats seeking the Presidency.

Who? Gore dominates the polls I have seen.

	25-09-2002 00:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch He probably thinks that the only chance he has in 04 is to have the US fail with Iraq so he can capture the "See, I told you so" position. . . . Personally I think it's a tad disgraceful a poitician pinning his election hopes on the US failing in a war,

This is not a supportable position. There is no evidence other than your own supposition that Gore favors the defeat of the United States.

As for the percentage of people who support the Pres, the American people are sheep. Sheep with teeth, but sheep nonetheless. Jimmytrick is a perfect example. He makes a claim about how Reagan would have ignored world opinion and democratic debate and just done what he liked, implying that acting like a dictator is an admirable quality in the leader of a democratic republic. There's no evidence of much of a thought process going on in this country regarding Iraq.

	25-09-2002 00:49									#43
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If Al Sharpton ever, and I mean ever, wins the Presidency, Apolyton can line up and I'll kiss your collective asses.

	25-09-2002 00:53									#44
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As opposed to all of your assumptions? I'm just offering my view as to how his speech will work best for him. It's my interpretation but it's no less supportable then some of your more fanciful ideas about people's motivations.

I think you seriously underestimate the desire of the American people for action in regards to removing the threats posed by Iraq to the US.

	25-09-2002 00:54									#45
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The US is a representative democracy. God forbid we should have to debate each action beforehand. We would be the UN.

Its bad enough that the adminstration has to face reelection every four years. It is very hard to have continuity in policy with constant elections.

Che, you need to contemplate the concept of leadership.

	25-09-2002 00:56									#46
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Yeah right Jimmy. Leadership leads in a forward direction.
Of late, Che only has been excelling at correcting the past.

	25-09-2002 00:58									#47
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Joe Lieberman and Al Gore now on opposite pages on the issue of Iraq. Lieberman is standing up to Saddam. Gore is playing politics. Of the two, I think the majority of Democrats back Lieberman.

Gore could have done himself a favor by supporting the administration on this issue. Whatever happens in the coming presidential campaign, his fellow democrats will not let the public forget this speech.

	25-09-2002 01:05									#48
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Republican's won't let Gore forget, if Democrats do.

Next President will be Colin Powell, if he decides to put up with the crap that goes with the job.
Personally, I think he'd be a fool.

	25-09-2002 01:08									#49
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The majority of the current Democratic hopefull's for a 2004 Presidential run are all opposed to Bush's stand on Iraq. Kerry's criticism has been the sharpest. Gore isn't even opposed to attacking Iraq. He's opposed to the way in which the current Administration is going about it, blowing all the good will he world had towards the US following 9/11 and risking greater instability.

walruskkkch, while my suppositions are just that, I don't then use them to make a point later. I said, this may be what he's up to (nor am I the only one to make that supposition, I just read it in Salon after writing it here). You on the other hand say, I think this is what he's doing, and what an awful person he is for that. Do you see the difference?

jimmytrick, the nature of leadership in a democratic republic is different from that of the divine right of Kings. President's are necessarily limited by the Constitution from acting without the permission of Congress. Our system was designed to keep any one branch from having complete power, and giving most power in the Federal government to the legislature. In our system, therefore, a leader must lead by the agreement of his people, and not simply do what he likes, damn the Congress, treaty allies, and the American public. It seems Republicans really want a King, and not a President.

	25-09-2002 01:13									#50
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Che. No. Are you just parroting what you read? And what later point was I supposed to be making other than I think Gore is a disgrace as a politician. Personal opinion of course, but no less valid than anyone else's opinions of particular politicians.

	25-09-2002 01:18									#51
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I find it interesting from a historical/family perspective.

Bush's dad went to war against Saddam.

Gore's dad lost all political clout because he opposed military action.

History repeating itself?

	25-09-2002 01:25									#52
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch Che. No. Are you just parroting what you read?

Do you understand the concept of time? As I wrote before, I read Salon after I wrote it here. That means I wrote it first. That means I read it second. First comes before second, unless you're counting backwards. Were you counting backwards?

quote: And what later point was I supposed to be making other than I think Gore is a disgrace as a politician. Personal opinion of course, but no less valid than anyone else's opinions of particular politicians.

You were basing that opinion on an erronious assumption. You assume Gore is opposed to the war (he is not). You assume he wants the US to lose the war (on what evidence?). You then declare he is a disgrace based on those assumptions. It's faulty reasoning.

	25-09-2002 01:31									#53
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Gore is not opposed to it? Seemed pretty much what comes through all his musings. The only reasoning that's faulty is Gore's.

So you read Liberalfantasy.com afterwards, so what. Still doesn't make your opinion anymore correct than anybody eleses.

	25-09-2002 01:41									#54
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch Gore is not opposed to it? Seemed pretty much what comes through all his musings. The only reasoning that's faulty is Gore's.

All right, put your money where your mouth is. Show the quote, in context, that shows Gore's opposition to an attack on Iraq. Since I read the damn speeh, I know you won't be able to do it.

quote: So you read Liberalfantasy.com afterwards, so what. Still doesn't make your opinion anymore correct than anybody eleses.

Typical conservative weasel. Attacks me for one thing, then when disproven, tries to pretend that it was something else.

	25-09-2002 01:56									#55
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Not trying to distract, just making a point about what I think of your sources.

Gore is not going to come rigth out and say he's against the war, he's going to give all the excuses as to why action is not necessary or should wait or all the other qualifiers that the opponents use. It's pretty much plain if you interpret his words rather than just read them.

	25-09-2002 08:25									#56
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch He's currently the front runner among the Democrats seeking the Presidency.

If Sharpton were the Democratic candidate, even Harlem would vote Republican.

	25-09-2002 09:42									#57
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One possible mistake Gore has made is more in the timing of his remarks and the subject. His fellow Dems have be trying to get the Iraq stuff pushed off the front page now that we are approaching (6 weeks) the congressional elections. It would have been better for Gore to hammer Bush on the economy, with minor focus on Iraq.

	25-09-2002 09:49									#58
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I think Gore is being advised by the same people that told him to change his 'image' during the 2000 campaign every few weeks.

	25-09-2002 10:52									#59
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	25-09-2002 10:59									#60
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Well, I made it through three quarters of the transcript Garth provided, Gore is as mudle-headed as ever...

Bush is wrong to attack saddam!...but Saddam must be attacked!

We must fight one war at a time!...But I support a regime change in Iraq!

Still the boring, lifeless pol he always was, I especailly enjoyed where he points out that he voted for the gulf war in 91, yet in 2002 that hasn't been resolved!...yet he was VP for 8 years, and said nothing during that time!

It's a wonder ANYBODY EVER voted for this guy for anything.