02-10-2002 20:16									#31
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I've stayed out of this till now bu might aswell voice my opinion now.

Other: FP in gaia or del monte and hold off on the palace till we get a GL.
We should build teh FP in a city that is likely to have it finished in under 50 turns and can't really wait 100+ turns for a palace to be built manually. So build FP in gaia/linney then see how things look when we get a GL.

	02-10-2002 20:16									#32
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb After Manufacturing Facilities both produce the units in one turn, only now the hill city is wasting half its production and generating extra pollution for it.

After Manufacturing plants the game is over. At the latest. Plain and simple.

	02-10-2002 20:21									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Please, give me a break... All cities, river or not, can get a +1 commerce bonus at every tile we work at. Just build a road. This isn't hard to do, as we are industrious.

And they get an additional +1 for a river tile!
So that 's +2, DOUBLE the commerce of a non river tile.

How you missed that piece of information, I don't know. It's in the Civopedia and the Rulebook.

	02-10-2002 20:31									#34
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I thought you were talking about the +1 commerce bonus with Republic and Democracy, which indeed comes with any commerce, river, road or both. But anyway. Our former core won't be completely corrupt. It will be very nicely between the 2 P/FP buildings and, after Democracy, Courthouses and Police stations be at least 80% productive, I assure you.

But their production always will remain mediocre. It's not about units. A Tank or MA in 1, 2 or 3 turns makes not much of a difference.

But a wonder or spaceship part in 5-6 turns vs. 15 turns in your grassland city makes.

	02-10-2002 20:40									#35
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Also the Macross area is not without rivers. I'm looking at a map not the game, but it looks like Macross itself has about 16 river tiles, and the surounding cities also have a fair amount.
on the other hand it is primarily moutains in the Macross area, not hills. An important difference

Last edited by Randolph on 02-10-2002 at 20:48

	02-10-2002 20:49									#36
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I voted "other" since I'm in favor of the combo "ghengistown" - "city on a hill". I don't have maps or the game here, so I didn't check which cities have nice food/production/commerce possibilities. I only checked the location of the cities I mentioned.

By the way - by 'pollution', do you mean thrown away banana peels?

	02-10-2002 20:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph But a wonder or spaceship part in 5-6 turns vs. 15 turns in your grassland city makes.

My grassland cities can build the spaceship parts in 4-7 turns (depending on the part) with a factory and Hoover Dam. I suspect the reason yours take longer is because they are so far from the capital.

	02-10-2002 21:30									#38
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb My grassland cities can build the spaceship parts in 4-7 turns (depending on the part) with a factory and Hoover Dam. I suspect the reason yours take longer is because they are so far from the capital.

Pretty unqualified comment. I'd like to see the grassland city, that builds the SS Engine, SETI or the UN in 4-7 turns. This city would have to give net 143-250 shields .

But indeed, the production of both is not so far apart than it may seem. Here are 2 screenshots of cities, optimized for production. Both have the same improvements, Factory and Hoover. Both are fully improved and are the same distance to palace/FP. The grassland city gives net 100 shields, and the mixed hill/grassland/plains city gives net 120 shields. So the difference is indeed not that big.

Grassland:

	02-10-2002 21:31									#39
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An mountains/hills:

Attachment: hills.jpg
This has been downloaded 44 time(s).

	02-10-2002 23:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Pretty unqualified comment. I'd like to see the grassland city, that builds the SS Engine, SETI or the UN in 4-7 turns. This city would have to give net 143-250 shields .

No more "unqualified" than yours:

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph But a wonder or spaceship part in 5-6 turns vs. 15 turns in your grassland city makes.

Which claims the grassland city would have only 1/3 the production of a non-grassland city.

	03-10-2002 00:42									#41
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Settle down guys or I'll call Duddha in here to eat your babies!

If you admit (Sir Ralph) that a grassland city and a grassland/hill city doesn't have a significant amont of difference then we should forgo the production part and concentrate on the commerce aspect.

If you are still worried about production consider a Timeline/Ghengistown - Contagon (damn speling) option (thats what I voted for ) It will maximize our river grassland centers (our core and Persian Annexation) and have over lapping effect on the Geofront area (our production center). As stated ealier, Uber Island is going to be corrupt no matter what we do (except build one of the improvement there ). Uber will just be a great big Jamacian vacation paradice!

	03-10-2002 00:57									#42
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Just think that with the macross option, the former center of our empire will be almost directly between the two, and will have overlapping benifits of both improvements. Corruption will be minimized (not eliminated) in this area.

I think we should go for a diplomatic victory myself, but in order to get one we will need BOTH a strong production and research/financial standing.

	03-10-2002 01:02									#43
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal If you admit (Sir Ralph) that a grassland city and a grassland/hill city doesn't have a significant amont of difference then we should forgo the production part and concentrate on the commerce aspect.

Why should I admit what's wrong? 20% is significant, when it comes to wonder and space race. And mind you, that the AI has 20% production bonus, so we need every shield we can make. And if you look at my example, both cities make the same commerce. Grassland cities remain only 2nd choice.

Especially in the medieval age, where the best wonders are, mountain cities show their power. Grassland cities get better only with railroads. They increase the productivity of unshielded grassland by 100% and of shielded by 50%. They increase the productivity of mountains and hills only by 33%, so the difference is much higher before railroads.

Here's the wonder list of my hill city. All wonders are built, none rushed. The list of the grassland city is empty. It wasn't that good in the wonder race to trust it good wonders.

	03-10-2002 01:04									#44
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Godking: you can only be affected by either the palace or the FP (whichever is closer) but not by both.
See this excellent thread for more info.

	03-10-2002 02:10									#45
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb This is a revelation to me. I've always know of the Builder vs Wamonger concepts. But I was never aware of the Shields vs Commerce strategies. I am definitely in the pro-Commerce strategy camp. Shields only do 1 thing: build. Commerce does 3 things: Science, Gold, and Happiness.

when you consider that shields can build structures that contribute to science, gold, and happiness plus build a military... the playing field between commerce and production is bet more level

	03-10-2002 02:15									#46
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Glad to see that two pairs are jumping out in this poll. (Even though my pair isn't one of those two.)

Yesterday at this time, responses were bascially flat.

A 20% difference is very important for building Factories, Small Wonders, Great Wonders, Forbidden Palace, relocating the Main Palace, and ICBMs. (Athough some Factories may be rushed.)

For military units, say a Tank, it doesn't matter unless it brings it below a key threshold and needs an extra turn.

	03-10-2002 03:46									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph But indeed, the production of both is not so far apart than it may seem. Here are 2 screenshots of cities, optimized for production. Both have the same improvements, Factory and Hoover. Both are fully improved and are the same distance to palace/FP. The grassland city gives net 100 shields, and the mixed hill/grassland/plains city gives net 120 shields. So the difference is indeed not that big.

Hmmm.. sounded like you were making a consession to me...

	03-10-2002 18:53									#48
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It definitely looks like it will be a runoff between Timeline/Contaginon and Macross City/Geofront.

	03-10-2002 19:47									#49
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This has been one of the best debates I have seen around here. Very refreshing break from the Builder/Warmonger threads that have dominated our early history.

	03-10-2002 20:58									#50
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx This has been one of the best debates I have seen around here. Very refreshing break from the Builder/Warmonger threads that have dominated our early history.

HeHeHe I know, this is the first time I've disagreed with Sir Ralph on something. I could practically see the steam rising from his ears.

HeHeHe.

	03-10-2002 22:49									#51
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yes, it's interesting to see various perspectives (wrong as they may be ), and although it seem combative it's just do to the interest level.

	04-10-2002 03:59									#52
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Thinking about the central cities. Remember, the palace will not move until its new location has (per my CP orders - at least for the next two weeks):

Courthouse
Temple
Cathedral
Aquaduct (if needed)

I would prefere it also to have a library, market, bank and factory, but these are not essential. Temple and cathedral to keep the people happy durrin the long construction (I hope to get some slaves to join the city to up production as much as possible - up to size 10 I hope)

The FP will be the same, but I will use money to rush the three necessaries and slaves to move in ASAP (if our esteamed Public Works Director will permit).

This will keep our current core productive for a while longer, building the courthouses and what not it will need.

GK

PS - when does this poll end? and when do we start the next one? I want to get moving on some of these improvements ASAP.

	04-10-2002 04:05									#53
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Macross City and Geofront

after we take this puny continent these will be better suited locations!

	04-10-2002 04:37									#54
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing PS - when does this poll end? and when do we start the next one? I want to get moving on some of these improvements ASAP.

It was set to be a 5 day poll.

	04-10-2002 06:16									#55
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As Minister of Economy I support Macross City - Geofront!

	04-10-2002 06:21									#56
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Timeline and Contaginon!

	04-10-2002 09:45									#57
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Timeline and Contaginon... I honestly think they're *much* better placed for keeping our entire empire within the reach of the FP and Palace...

And Ubercrux and others... if we really take over all of France, Greece, and Russia... there's no reason we can't then MOVE THE PALACE AGAIN from Timeline to Macross City... but with the empire we expect to have at least for the next age worth of the game, it makes MUCH more sense to have the capital in Timeline.

	04-10-2002 10:07									#58
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I don1t know exactly what the CoL says about , but IMO we already have the two options for a new poll:
Timeline and Contaginon vs. Macross City and Geofront.
And, to make the things more interesting, the first couple is supported by the Minister of Imperial Expansion and the second by the Minister of Economy...

I love this game!

	04-10-2002 10:33									#59
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Timeline is Contagious!

Oops! I meant Timeline and Contaginon!

I felt a 5 day poll would be better as this is a very important decision. It's not like they can build one or the other in one turn session anyway.

	06-10-2002 02:57									#60
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[This poll closes tomorrow and then we will have a runoff between the obvious contenders.