04-10-2002 09:56									#31
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Surely some of the early Federal units from the War of Northern Agression. Many would rout at the mere sound of the rebel yell.

When Jackson flanked at Chancellorsville the Federals were cooking with rifles stacked. There were no flankers out because the terrain on the flank looked like an impentrable wall of thorny thickets. They heard a racket and noticed that small animals were running out of the thickets, then larger animals. Still they stood and then the rebs came thru, many streaked will blood because of the thorns, shrieking the rebel yell. The vast majority of the Federals never took up arms, but simple turned and ran for their lives. Some ran for miles causing the panic to spread to adjacent units. I could look up the specific units if you like.

	04-10-2002 10:30									#32
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The south will rise again! Woowee! Hear that Festus? We gonna get them yanks back!

The War of Northern Aggression? Who attacked Fort Sumter? Who seceded? Who started the whole war? I have never heard of anyone to call an attempt to preserve their country an aggression. What a stupid thing to say. A country isn't going to say, "Oh, it looks like the country is breaking in half. I better let it be because I don't want to start a fight."

	04-10-2002 10:32									#33
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I do admit many fed units in the War Between the States were pathetic. The war up til Gettysburg was embarassing.

	04-10-2002 10:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ikarus What does everyone have against the French, besides that they were defeated in WW2. But still they had a pretty awesome military. Did you know that the French Armee de l'Air had a better kill-loss ratio than the German Luftwaffe.

Luftwaffe had to fight a far better equipped (and gigantic) American Army Air Corps, and the RAF. The French never had to do such things.

	04-10-2002 10:44									#35
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod A country isn't going to say, "Oh, it looks like the country is breaking in half. I better let it be because I don't want to start a fight."

Well I don't know about you, but if jimmytrick wanted to live in a different country and wave a different flag, I'd be happy to let him use the South for that. It's not like I like that hellhole much.

	04-10-2002 14:48									#36
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The trouble with giving up the South is you have to give up southern women, the only thing that makes being a male in the US bearable. OTOH, you'd get rid of southern men, so it's a net gain. We can always import women from Italy and Ireland.

As for pathetic, I'm going with the armored knights at Agincourt. They drink and argue all night, blow their mobility advantage by charging right onto Henry's pikes, and finish up as longbow sheesh-ka-bob. Nice job, guys.

	04-10-2002 15:05									#37
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The non conscript british army which went to france in 1914 were so good the germans thought their rifle fire was machine guns.

	04-10-2002 15:44									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Wutang!! Unlike the US, Canada has never lost a war.

I see. Is that why its still a French country? Now I understand. Quebec is the heart of Canada and all those English speakers are mere riff-raff with a serious delusion the the English took Canada from the French.

	04-10-2002 16:14									#39
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I agree. The balls they had to keep going... Hense the discussion of leadership.

The men were extremely well trained by that leadership. From every thing I can tell its was more a complete lack of adequate communication, misunderstanding of both written and verbal orders by, Lord Raglan, ambiguous gestures by Captain Nolan and the simple fact that no one in the valley could see the guns they were supposed to attack.

The orders had been written by men that were on much higher ground and they had no trouble seeing what the Russians they wanted the Light Brigade to attack. The Light Brigade itself had been champing at the bit for a long time to engage the enemy instead just scouting especialy after the Heavy Brigade had distinguished itself earlier that day. Tennyson wrote a poem about that engagement as well but its not as well known.

Link to Tennyson's Poem The Charge of the Heavy Brigade:

http://www.geocities.com/irby.geo/cothb.html

Nice page on the Charge of the Light Brigade taken from:

From: C. R. B. Barrett, History of the XIII Hussars, William Blackwood and Sons, Edinburgh and London, 1911.

http://www.pinetreeweb.com/13th-balaclava2.htm


For a good fictionalized account of some of the action at Balaclava I recommend George McDonald Fraser's Flashman at the Charge. It has Hero, dastard and coward Harry Flashmen at all the major battles of that day, The Thing Red Line, The Charge of the Heavy Brigade and the Charge of the Light Brigade at which point Harry is captured and the rest of the books deals with Harry in Russia.

Can't find much on the Thin Red Line

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timeli...n_redline.shtml

Most of what I can find are like this one trying to sell prints of paintings of the battle:

http://www.cranstonfinearts.com/LISTING/PICTURES/G3.HTM

Flashman fan site on Flashman at the Charge

http://www.harryflashman.org/vol4.htm

Amazon UK page

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...2526313-1439600

Boy is that a terrible cover. My paperback has a great Frank Frazzetta painting.

US Amazon site

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...glance&n=507846

Well the cover is a bit better but as is the case with ALL the Flashman books only the standard paperbacks have had really good covers.

	04-10-2002 16:17									#40
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The light brigade were definatlry not useless. I don't think anyone would want to fight a unit that charged miles down a narrow cannon with a huge bunch of artilery firing at them. can you imgine how pissed they would have been when they got to the end

	04-10-2002 16:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod The War of Northern Aggression? Who attacked Fort Sumter? Who seceded? Who started the whole war? I have never heard of anyone to call an attempt to preserve their country an aggression. What a stupid thing to say. A country isn't going to say, "Oh, it looks like the country is breaking in half. I better let it be because I don't want to start a fight."

Shhh the Southerners around here and the Texans in particular are in a serious state of denial about the Civil War. Talking with them is like trying to discuss reality with a parnoid-schizophrenic. Everything makes sense IF you can accept their assumptions.

	04-10-2002 16:48									#42
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"Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him."

From our pet Texans email signature

	04-10-2002 17:15									#43
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From my memory...
Remember hearing a story from Russia in WWII.

Russians desided to train dogs to run to tanks (with bombs tied to the body), and this way make Germans tanks less efective. Training was done so that the dogs assosiated tanks with food, i.e. plates of food were under the tanks.

Well it finally came to testing in a battle between German and Russian tanks.
Result: Russian tanks had to flee in a panic as the dogs were running towards them. (Russians had used own tanks for training).

Don't now if this is a true story or a tale, but I think it's funny anyway.
Can anyone confirm/deny this story?

	04-10-2002 17:28									#44
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That one reminds of another animal unit. And it has GOT TO BE the most pathetic of all time.

Top this one.

Incendiary pigs

Someone figured out that elephants didn't like the sound of squeeling pigs. The best way to make the pigs squeel on cue was to light them on fire.

You can see a military miniture of them halfway down this page

http://www.jonesy.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/camillan.htm

I can't remember who came up with this travesty of ancient warfare or if was ever effectively used.

	04-10-2002 17:53									#45
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If I recall correctly, some members of the Ugandan rebel Lord's Resistance Army believe that they can be bullet-proofed by smearing their clothes with semen.

In several encounters with regular Ugandan army units, this protein shield has been found somewhat wanting...

	04-10-2002 17:59									#46
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The military types chasing the A-team were rubbish

	04-10-2002 18:19									#47
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Who attacked Fort Sumter? Who seceded? Who started the whole war? I have never heard of anyone to call an attempt to preserve their country an aggression. What a stupid thing to say. A country isn't going to say, "Oh, it looks like the country is breaking in half. I better let it be because I don't want to start a fight."

The United States government refused to surrender the fort at Sumter and indeed was making haste to reinforce the facility for agressive action against the sovereign state of South Carolina. Many southern states seceded as was their right. The War itself was started by the Federalists. The South was conquered and occupied in a brutally oppressive, illegal, and cruel war.

	04-10-2002 18:36									#48
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quote: The United States government refused to surrender the fort at Sumter

Why should they? It was a Federal fort, owned by the US Government.

quote: Many southern states seceded as was their right.

No it wasn't. Show me in the Constitution where it says you can leave. The Federal government was merely beginning an action for Breach of Contract... with arms .

quote: The South was conquered and occupied in a brutally oppressive, illegal, and cruel war.

... which conquered a brutal and oppressive part of the country.

	04-10-2002 18:49									#49
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Worst formation Boshko?

Easy, SS Dirlewanger Brigade, commanded by SS Colonel Oscar Dirlewanger, a notorious drunkard and liar said to be convicted of rape, robbery, and other crimes.
The brigade was recruited from the concentration camps, the Col at first selected poachers because he thought them good shots, but by 44 common criminals predominated, and a few Communists and political prisoners thrown in.

Used in the Warsaw uprising at a strength of 900, it required 2,500 replacements

	04-10-2002 18:49									#50
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Good one!

-The Russian Fleet sunk by Japan in 1905 (?)
-Just about any Italian unit during WWII
-The French knights at Agincourt
-The French knights at Crecy
-The French knights at Poitiers
-The Persians at Thermopolye
-The Persians at Marathon
-The Persians at ? (the sea battle Athens won that forced them to pull back most of their army from Greece)
-The Crusaders who went and sacked Constantinople before going anywhere near the Holy Land
-The English army defeated at Stirling Bridge
-The Scots army defeated under "Bonney Prince Charlie" (I forget the name of the battle)*
-The Federal forces at Bull Run

* - I'm not sure if this one really counts, as the Scots were really poorly armed and pitted against a well armed (and well trained) opponent.

I would include more USA forces from the Civil War, but most of that was leadership, or rather the lack thereof. The North started doing just fine once the incompetants were weeded out. I mean honestly, Ambrose Burnside in command of the Army of the Potomac?

-Arrian

	04-10-2002 19:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick The United States government refused to surrender the fort at Sumter and indeed was making haste to reinforce the facility for agressive action against the sovereign state of South Carolina. Many southern states seceded as was their right. The War itself was started by the Federalists. The South was conquered and occupied in a brutally oppressive, illegal, and cruel war.

jimmy, Since the war, the constitution remains unamended on the right to secede. If it existed then, it exists now. I presume your position is that the South has a present right to secede.

This position is easily tested without the need to resort to arms. We have a Supreme Court, after all.

If this is the correct non violnet course of action now, it was correct course of action then.

	04-10-2002 19:23									#52
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Third Platoon, Alpha Company, 4th Battalion, 2nd Brigade, Fort Lost-In-The-Woods, MO, Summer 1969.

I have that on the authority of Drill Sergeants Sanderson and Dread (I'm not making that name up).

	04-10-2002 19:47									#53
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The bunch of kids in Children's Crusade.

	04-10-2002 20:18									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred For a good fictionalized account of some of the action at Balaclava I recommend George McDonald Fraser's Flashman at the Charge. It has Hero, dastard and coward Harry Flashmen at all the major battles of that day, The Thing Red Line, The Charge of the Heavy Brigade and the Charge of the Light Brigade at which point Harry is captured and the rest of the books deals with Harry in Russia.

I love the Flashman books. They are really funny but historically interesting at the same time

	04-10-2002 20:31									#55
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Royal Flash has been made as a movie. Fraser did the screenplay as he did for the Three and Four Musketeers plus the Return of the Musketeers all of which were directed by Richard Lester.

IMDB link for Royal Flash

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0073639

Unfortunatly it doesn't seem to be available even on VHS. Maybe in Britain.

	04-10-2002 20:43									#56
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I have seen the movie. It is on TV over here occasionally. I didn't think it lived up to the books though.

	04-10-2002 21:05									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ned jimmy, Since the war, the constitution remains unamended on the right to secede. If it existed then, it exists now. I presume your position is that the South has a present right to secede. This position is easily tested without the need to resort to arms. We have a Supreme Court, after all. If this is the correct non violnet course of action now, it was correct course of action then.

The issue of secession is moot at this time, as there does not exist any significant infringement of states rights that might justify such action. Of course the rights of the individual states has been eroded in so many ways that it is unlikely to ever become an issue again. Currently the differences in the various geographical regions of the US are not sufficient to cause any political crisis.

Insofar as the legality goes, of course, there would never be any agreement by opposing sides. When the American colonies entered into a state of rebellion against England I doubt gave a damn about the opinions of the English courts.

Of course that war ended in independence for the aggrieved party, whereas in the War of North Aggression the aggrieved party was enslaved and subjugated by force of arms.

	04-10-2002 21:16									#58
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But my point, jimmy, is that the resort to arms would have been necessary only if the Supreme Court said the South did not have a right to secede. The proper response to the buildup at Sumpter was a lawsuit at the Supreme Court seeking a restraining order against Lincoln. That would have set up the issue of South Carolina's right to secede.

I suspect, though, that part of the South's problem may have been that it did not recognize the right of the Supreme Court to decide the issue.

As to aggrievances, again we did have a Supreme Court that could have invalidated any unconstitutional legislation or executive action. In the case of the Colonists against the Crown, there was no such animal. The resort to arms was the only means to stop the abuses.

	04-10-2002 21:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller yet kicked the German's asses Jon Miller

You really don't understand war at all. The Germans had an superbly trained military but attacked a major city and exhausted its resources. Plus it was overextended. The Russian just burned down their fields leaving the Germans with nothing to take on their way to Stalingrad... also the Russians couldn't fight for crap. They finally defeated the Germans because of the overwhelming numbers (not better training) and the mistake the German high command made of attacking a city like Stalingrad. The only redeeming quality the Russians had were the snipers they had in Stalingrad.

	04-10-2002 21:46									#60
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The Russian anti tank cannine special unit, the only tanks they got were russian.