21-11-2002 01:53									#241
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I agree, let Pavlov stay

	21-11-2002 03:03									#242
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How do we know that you're not cheating Pavlov? In my experiance, cheaters rarely limit their activites to one game, and even less rarely admit to all their cheating when caught.

I'd rather that we found a replacement for you.

	21-11-2002 03:59									#243
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This could explain Techumseh's mysterious freelance destroyer runs.

	21-11-2002 04:12									#244
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freelance destroyer runs?

	21-11-2002 04:16									#245
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sure, last page... 7 posts down from the top.

	21-11-2002 04:22									#246
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I'm sorry you feel that way, Case. Oh well, it was fun playing with you.

And FMK, the destroyer-thing is not because of anything I have done. I have not cheated in this game, I swear.

	21-11-2002 04:34									#247
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I didn't say you did. I was just saying it could be, hence the italics. I am not in this game, so it isn't up to me anyway Pavlov.

	21-11-2002 06:36									#248
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I'm inclined to let Pavlov stay, since he's admitted it. At some point we have to start building a concensus among PBEM players that cheating is unacceptable and that cheaters eventually get caught and exposed. Having a reformed cheater or two onside might help spread the message.

	21-11-2002 07:03									#249
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From Darius, who has been banned.

While I'm for letting Pavlov stay in the games I'm in with him, to be fair to Case I thought I'd remind you all that cheaters have been given "second chances" before. In the case of Willemvanoranje, he gave us the old "I only cheated in this turn in this game, nowhere else" line, we let him continue, and it was quickly proven that he indeed did cheat in another game. In the case of Elibb, he was given a second chance and cheated again.

Here are the threads so you can see for yourselves:

Willemvanoranje

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...4382#post314382

Elibb

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...4619#post374619

[/Darius speaking through me since he's banned]

	21-11-2002 09:54									#250
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I think that it takes more of a man to admit to cheating than to have just plain cheated.

What do you mean by a consensus techumseh? I mean, they are pretty much caught and exposed within each thread per occurance. But with this there is no way to have the brand of 'cheater' follow you from one game to another other than word of mouth.

Maybe we could have some kind of system within the CivII PBEM civgroup whereby you are either rated for every PBEM game you play by the other players. This could be a simple 1-5 stars and a comments field which is entered into a kind of log for each civgroup member, like on the civgroup personal profile or somesuch.

Something where a newbie who might not know the local scuttlebut can know enough to not ask a particular player to join a game...

Then again, do we want a blacklisting witchhunt on our hands? I dunno whats best.

	21-11-2002 10:09									#251
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Pavlov only 'admitted' to cheating after he was caught clearly lying (he claimed to have killed a battleship via kamakazis when the casualty figures show that he didn't lose any units that turn). That's hardly the mark of a reformed character IMO.

If I'm the only person with an objection, I'll drop it as Spain is on the other side of the map from me. However, based on past experiance, I doubt that Pavlov is to be trusted.

	21-11-2002 10:19									#252
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I say let him play, as even if he does cheat in this game it will not hurt my conquest of Russia
And about the PBEM Blacklist, as a mod at CFC i decided against that and closed the thread....so u know my opinion on a PBEM blacklist

	21-11-2002 10:30									#253
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SunTzu, I seem to recall that you closed that thread because it had been comprehensivly threadjacked and turned into a flame war (me vs a couple of totally uninformed fools from memory )

	21-11-2002 12:01									#254
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hmmm maybe, i dunno lol. i don't like the idea of a blacklist anyways, your probably right though, lots of flamewars at CFC

	21-11-2002 19:08									#255
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Okey well if someone feels like doing it I can PM my password and they can look through all my saves to look for cheating.

	21-11-2002 20:09									#256
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I think he's probably worried that you would cheat later on, when more's at stake. No one doubts that you haven't cheated in this game, since AFAIK you haven't even had any combat yet.

	21-11-2002 20:16									#257
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Oh well you know if it's that way, I'll let you find a substite. I wouldn't want anyone getting less fun out of the game because of suspicions.

	21-11-2002 20:28									#258
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I vote for letting Pavlov continue. I know it is wrong to cheat and all that but it seems to me that he is genuine in his apology. Besides, Spain has such a minority role in this game that it would be difficult to find a new player. I don't think Pavlov would be silly enough to cheat again. Besides, he probably feels pretty bad about being exposed in front of everybody without us sticking the boot in further. Let Pavlov play. That's what I think anyway.

	22-11-2002 03:02									#259
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I abstain from the voting. I have nothing against Pavlov, but if I vote to keep him and he cheats, it will be my fault; but if he goes and doesn't cheat anymore, then I am at fault for expelling him.
So I take no stand but will abide by whatever is decided.

	22-11-2002 03:05									#260
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ok well its decided Pavlov stays, majority vote

	22-11-2002 03:13									#261
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OK, seeing as I'm the only 'hold out' and Spain is on the other side of the map I drop my objection to Pavlov remaining in this game. If I had a border with Spain I certainly wouldn't have changed my position.

quote: ok well its decided Pavlov stays, majority vote

The convention seems to be that cheaters can only stay if they get a unanmious vote

	23-11-2002 01:34									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Case SunTzu, I seem to recall that you closed that thread because it had been comprehensivly threadjacked and turned into a flame war

Thought I'd respond to this, Kobayashi told me that it was indeed banned due to the threadjacking, but afterward, behind the scenes, it was also decided that such a thread shouldn't exist at all.

	23-11-2002 01:37									#263
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damn skippy darius, ok now lets get on with the game please!

	23-11-2002 04:16									#264
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It's my turn. I'll be able to post by tomorrow.

	23-11-2002 04:18									#265
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k

	23-11-2002 04:52									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Thought I'd respond to this, Kobayashi told me that it was indeed banned due to the threadjacking, but afterward, behind the scenes, it was also decided that such a thread shouldn't exist at all.

Oh, OK. I didn't know that.

I wonder if it had anything to do with a certain Mod being put on the list by a certain poster

edit: fixed spelling

	23-11-2002 04:54									#267
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If you mean who I think you mean, he quit as a mod when he quit the games. He came back only recently, and that was only to post on soccer threads.

	23-11-2002 09:01									#268
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No, I'm refering to another mod, who will remain nameless

	23-11-2002 09:54									#269
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Ahhhhhhh. I forgot it was originally for dropouts, not cheaters.

	23-11-2002 10:21									#270
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bloody ****ers game on please! enough with this jibberish non-sense!