14-10-2002 20:15									#31
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If people want to do a new Civ list, then thats up to them. It is probably too soon but hopefully we as a community have learned from the first list. In that we gave tons of suggestions ideas and there was no way we would ever get that included in the game. It would have been too bloated. In their attempt to satisfy us they made a game with a lot of problems.

What we need to do in this next list is to come up with the ideas - give them to Firaxis but then do something extra. We need to give them an overall direction on how we want it done. Now this is going to lead to a ton of debate but we need to say what we expect. They can't put every idea in (hell, most ideas in the list were contrary to another idea on the list.). So we need to say what we are looking for, an overall theme, an overall mission of the game. Forget all the bells and whistles, we are looking for a fun game. That when it is all said and done would make a Civ IV list worth it.

	15-10-2002 03:32									#32
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quote: Originally posted by tniem What we need to do in this next list is to come up with the ideas - give them to Firaxis but then do something extra. We need to give them an overall direction on how we want it done. (...) So we need to say what we are looking for, an overall theme, an overall mission of the game. Forget all the bells and whistles, we are looking for a fun game. That when it is all said and done would make a Civ IV list worth it.

I agree. But there is a problem. Let's say we, the community, can agree about what we want from the game -- beside the "fun" aspect, which is quite subjective. Even if such concordance would be possible, I don't think that we could give them anything but general directions... things so broad and encompassing that would not be of any use to the actual game design.

	15-10-2002 04:44									#33
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quote: Originally posted by TKG suggestion #2: make SMAC 2 instead. suggestion #1 still applies though

Ooooh, now I like that idea! I would love to see a SMAC2!

	15-10-2002 04:46									#34
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I guess I should give SMAC another try... just never got into that game.

	15-10-2002 04:50									#35
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Well I could imagine what they could do with SMAC 2. It had so many great concepts that were never used in Civ3 such as social engineering, landmarks and unit workshop (although needs to be refined, the basic concept is a good one).

A lot of potential there...although it would just have to be a rehash of the SMAC story, and I don't know what the demand in general would be like...

	15-10-2002 05:04									#36
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Master of Magic II should be done first!!!!!

	15-10-2002 05:24									#37
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It looks like they're gonna be busy.

How about MoMII, CivIV, SMAC2 and Col2 all rolled into one? I'm not sure what on earth that would look like, but it must be good.

	15-10-2002 06:11									#38
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MOM is older than the rest, so we have been waiting longer!

	15-10-2002 06:26									#39
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I'd like to see another MOM version.

	15-10-2002 08:32									#40
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It's been YEARS and YEARS since colonization first came out. it was a GREAT game. And all the new technologies, ways of playing computer games, they could make an AWESOME colonization game that would be fresh and new, and most importantly (for us) it would be fun, and most importantly (for them) it would sell. Colonization 2 gets my vote.

	15-10-2002 09:27									#41
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Colonization II is my suggestion as well. But it doesn't sound like they will be doing that until after the whole 3d thingy.

quote: I don't think that we could give them anything but general directions... things so broad and encompassing that would not be of any use to the actual game design.

That is kind of what I mean. We should give them a couple different ways they could go with it that would be fun and incorporate fresh ideas. That way they could choose from three different ways to make the game or something like that. Otherwise, we (and when I say we that is with the nod that I had nothing to do with the prior list) will send them hundreds of suggestions again and few will be implemented properly or effectively.

	15-10-2002 09:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Well, I would suggest Stella Polaris before SMAC II as StP is already under work, while there's no information about a possible version 2 of SMAC.

Again, as I said, not that SP isn't a good idea, but why have a zillion of OSS projects all floating around, all in some unfinished state?

There's only so many programmers, so why not concentrate on making one of the projects work?

	15-10-2002 09:46									#43
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Firaxis is said to be working on some XCOM sequel anyway.

	15-10-2002 12:03									#44
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what about civ5?

	15-10-2002 13:49									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Again, as I said, not that SP isn't a good idea, but why have a zillion of OSS projects all floating around, all in some unfinished state?

Errhhhmmm... that's abit biased. Not all of them are in an unifinished status. Take Linux, mySQL, PHP, FreeCiv, OpenBSD, OpenSSL and OpenOffice as an example. Are they "unifinished"? Nope. Neither can you say that only fully commercial products like Windows, Access, WordPerfect and PSP would be in a finished status.

Oh, and it's not SP as singleplayer. StP is correct.

Anyway...

If you have a look at how many open source TBS games can be found on SourceForge, you will see that there's currently 523 registered projects in that category. Some of them are dead like GGS, but many of them are steadily under development, but still progressing.

quote: There's only so many programmers, so why not concentrate on making one of the projects work?

In theory that would mean everyone interested should work on FreeCiv and their pure SMAC clone, based on FreeCiv. Nah, that's far from interesting. 1. FreeCiv is very complete after all. 2. The SMAC clone doesn't offer anything really new. 3. There's already people working on it. But in general it's an issue of diversity. At least I can't find any other project as interesting as Stella Polaris.

	15-10-2002 19:59									#46
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How about Pirates 2?

	15-10-2002 21:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Henrik How about Pirates 2?

Now you're talking!

	16-10-2002 11:02									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Errhhhmmm... that's abit biased. Not all of them are in an unifinished status. Take Linux, mySQL, PHP, FreeCiv, OpenBSD, OpenSSL and OpenOffice as an example. Are they "unifinished"? Nope.

I didn't know you worked on those projects, or those projects - except FreeCiv - has anything to do with this website.

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Neither can you say that only fully commercial products like Windows, Access, WordPerfect and PSP would be in a finished status.

Did I? :rolleyes?:

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Anyway... If you have a look at how many open source TBS games can be found on SourceForge, you will see that there's currently 523 registered projects in that category. Some of them are dead like GGS, but many of them are steadily under development, but still progressing.

Most of them aren't coming along with any speed.

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin In theory that would mean everyone interested should work on FreeCiv and their pure SMAC clone, based on FreeCiv. Nah, that's far from interesting. 1. FreeCiv is very complete after all. 2. The SMAC clone doesn't offer anything really new. 3. There's already people working on it. But in general it's an issue of diversity. At least I can't find any other project as interesting as Stella Polaris.

Has SP posted on SourceForge yet? Will it ever be?

	16-10-2002 17:32									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Did I?

Nope.

quote: Has SP posted on SourceForge yet? Will it ever be?

Would you please spare a moment and tell me what this "SP" thingy is? If you refer to StP, I can only report that there's no alpha versions currently available as A1 is currently under work.

	16-10-2002 19:33									#50
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Looking how they ignored the wishlist, I preffer wait for Civ 4 like just another game.

Civ III is quite a deception in a long amount of points, especially the world graphics and conception. At least, the AI is really good . In a whole vision of the game, is a good one, but still insuficient for me.

Probably, if someday we see a Civ IV, it will be in a 3D world with a true globe form and with volcanoes, tsunamis and beautiful things that give us the sensation of a living planet.

In the other hand, a good example of how a living and beautiful world can't hide that a game is too simplistic is in Black & White. Is quite boring collect tons of wood for just com ??"scafforlds"?? .

	17-10-2002 21:25									#51
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SMAC II? I would have to say no- the first game was far too dark- CIV IV- that woudl be great- if they improved the graphics and made it at least as good and expansive as CIV II!

Civ III is/was/will be a disappointment.

We need to start work on the Civ IV list already!

(luckily I have a preliminary list already created )

	18-10-2002 05:35									#52
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Exactly DC. There are mixed responses to Civ3, but I think we all acknowledge, there is room for improvement! Hence we need a proper Civ4 section to start at some point. The more time we spend on it, the more we can refine our ideas!

	18-10-2002 05:44									#53
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Yes, Sid likest o wait until he would be able seriously improve something... probably Civ4 will be 3D or something like that (although I'd personally hardly imagine 3D TBS, but you know, some years ago I wouldn't have imagined 3D RTS also and even more years ago any 3D game...)

	21-10-2002 02:50									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow I'd say forget the pros. They took their shot, it sucks, and they'll keep selling it as long as they can. If it ever comes to Civ4 they might undo their mistakes, they might not. They might come up with something worse than city-flipping. Go back to Civ 2˝. Get into Freeciv or some other independent effort.

I'll vote for that. We can use a few pairs of hands!


Btw, the next FC release is drawing near (1.14).

	21-10-2002 03:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I'd rather see a professionally done Colonization 2 first. Get out the banners and re-initiate the campaign.

yes. YES.

	21-10-2002 03:53									#56
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I'm sort of disillusioned with CivGames, partially because their idea of leading a country is moving several thousand units into a neighboring zone each turn. What I need is a game that involves a lot less micromanagement, something that lets me concentrate on the macro-game, broad economics and diplomacy and whatnot.

	21-10-2002 05:14									#57
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Mr. President, maybe you should try Birth of Federation? This one is set in space, but there is very small amout of micromanagement. You won't be able to build many spaceships because these costs much and you will be able to stack ones you have. As for city imrovements, you can just order them and everything will be built for you in time The only improvement on titles you can built is Outpost (and later you can upgrade that to Starbase), most of resources (probably money is the only resource though) are gotten in planets. Everything else is also very simple, so you can do diplomacy, etc. Space fights could be controlled manually if you want (they have awesome 3D graphics and later you can re-watch whole battle from starting point) or they can be done automatically. Everything is quite simple so you can stack to diplomacy, etc.

	21-10-2002 05:33									#58
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or try Age of Empires and Rise of Nations

	21-10-2002 06:44									#59
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jdd, RoN is not even published and AoE has no diplomacy/almost anything except war.

	21-10-2002 08:56									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud SMAC II? I would have to say no- the first game was far too dark- CIV IV- that woudl be great- if they improved the graphics and made it at least as good and expansive as CIV II! Civ III is/was/will be a disappointment. We need to start work on the Civ IV list already! (luckily I have a preliminary list already created )

Why it doesn´t surprise me?
My vote goes to Civ IV too.