15-10-2002 05:24									#31
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Dunno. Our Al Qaeda radar is pretty sensitive right now and I guess being the "Great Satan" makes us a little more mindful of the downside of Iran's actions.

Broadly speaking, Europe has decided to pin its hopes on the current elected government to effect change while the US has decided they are incapable of doing much of anything with their current approach.

	15-10-2002 05:35									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Dunno. Our Al Qaeda radar is pretty sensitive right now and I guess being the "Great Satan" makes us a little more mindful of the downside of Iran's actions. Broadly speaking, Europe has decided to pin its hopes on the current elected government to effect change while the US has decided they are incapable of doing much of anything with their current approach.

DanS, isn't it interesting that the UK is suffering a news blackout on Iran and terrorism, particularly the degree to which Iran is harboring al Qaida terrorists, when at the same time British policy on Iran favors better relations? One would almost think that British media is controlled by and manipulated by the British government.

	15-10-2002 05:38									#33
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Ned, I take it you've never read British newspapers, or you would never have come up with such a stupid conclusion.

	15-10-2002 05:49									#34
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Well maybe it's like American media. It's not blatant control, but they make sure that cooperative media outlets get the inside scoop. So the media have an interest in pleasing the government on certain issues.

	15-10-2002 06:03									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Ned, I take it you've never read British newspapers, or you would never have come up with such a stupid conclusion.

SG, what explanation do you have?

BTW, I understand that some of your press has naked ladies on page 3? I would suspect that this press is not controlled by the government. However, do they really conver the news other that the fight down at the pub?

	15-10-2002 06:56									#36
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The idea is once you knock over the Taliban and Saddam, the rest of the MidEast gets the message and stops f-ing with us.

We'll never try to attack Iran. Their government is elected by and supported by the people, legitimately (well, at least as legitimately as ours...).

Also, Iraq is secular so we can get away with an invasion without ipso facto being declared an enemy of Islam, but Iran is an Islamic state and no Islamic country will accept a US invasion. We're already pissing off the Arab Moslems, and we sure don't need to piss off the non-Arab Moslems in Indonesia, Phillippines, India, Pakistan, Eastern Russia, etc, etc, etc...

I assume the US will cut a deal with Iran like we did with Pakistan, which means the government at least pays lip service to not funding terrorism and we don't screw with their trade or rant about whacking their leaders.

If all goes well, then once the neocons are ousted over here a sensible administration (perhaps with Powell back again) can put the Israelis in the nutcracker and tell them to let up on their Arabs now that Hezbollah's $$$ is drying up, blackmail the Saudis and Kuwaitis to liberalize their governments, and let the air out of the radical Islamic balloon. Will it work? Nope, but worth a try.

	15-10-2002 07:06									#37
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quote: Imran, Iran is also ripe for a revolution. We may need simply to light the fuse.

It is one thing to get Congress to allow Bush to take out Saddam. It is totally different to get Congress to approve ground troops to take out Iran, seeing when it's President is a moderate.

	15-10-2002 07:47									#38
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Its President is a moderate, but he doesn't have real power in government. The fact remains, Imran, that we're committed to fighting nations that sponsor or harbor terrorists. Iran is one of these. If you align yourself with terrorists, we don't care how moderate your policies are. You are our enemy.

Frankly I think Iran is more legitimate a target than Iraq. Iraq has done very little to sponsor terror, while Iran practically invented state-sponsored terrorism.

	15-10-2002 09:07									#39
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quote: Its President is a moderate, but he doesn't have real power in government. The fact remains, Imran, that we're committed to fighting nations that sponsor or harbor terrorists. Iran is one of these. If you align yourself with terrorists, we don't care how moderate your policies are. You are our enemy.

Mark my words (or Read my Lips ) we will NOT go to war with Iran in the next 20 years. It doesn't matter that they sponsor terrorists, we are not going into Iran.

	15-10-2002 10:16									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Alright, I'll bite. Who is the real enemy, Eli?

The ruling elites of pretty much every Arab/Muslim country, except Turkey, Jordan and a number of others.

	15-10-2002 10:27									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin The US record when it comes to "lighting fuses" does not fill me with confidence

That reminds me of the joke:

A: "When a blah throws a pin at you, run away!"
B: "Why?"
A: "He has a grenade in his mouth!"

	15-10-2002 16:44									#42
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quote: Iran today declared a fatwah against an American. Guess who? Yup, it's Jerry Falwell.

He had it coming.

	15-10-2002 18:02									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus quote: Iran today declared a fatwah against an American. Guess who? Yup, it's Jerry Falwell. He had it coming.

Well Falwell apologized. But I doubt that will be enought to atone for his "offense."

Falwell should journey to Iran and apologize to the Ayatollah in person. No, that would take balls.

	15-10-2002 18:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Irans harbouring of terrorists and sponsoring of terrorism now taken as read, riddle me this... why are these not being played up by the British Media/Government? I don't see an obvious reason.

As far as their connection with Hizbollah, Hamas etc goes, it's old news.

As far as Al Qaeda is concerned, it's mostly just US government claims. Don't know about the UK, but our media just don't carry every propaganda line coming out of Washington without anything to back it up. That some AlQ members may move in the border region to Afghanistan - big deal...

	15-10-2002 18:34									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Irans harbouring of terrorists and sponsoring of terrorism now taken as read, riddle me this... why are these not being played up by the British Media/Government? I don't see an obvious reason.

Oh, as if the reason for attacking Iraq is obvious, it is the one the public are most likely to accept... or be persuaded to accept. It seems that US/UK might have different interests with Iran, especially UK it seems, as we are particularly friendly. What it is, normal people do not know, nor will we get to know, but hey, I'd rather have Iran in peace, whatever the reasons.

If someone was after the terrorists, than I guess they would have to bully Pakistan first of all, how they came from the war on terrorism to the attack on Iraq... well that is just good PR management. (anyway the US just claimed that they can do war on two fronts so this is clearly not related Iraq and terrorism even officially) Whatever the reasons, Iraq is surely the favourite target as the population does not like Saddam anyway... so I guess that makes him a good target. For Iran/ Pakistan/ Saudi Arabia one could definitly make a much better case for attack - ie connection with current terrorist threat for SA terror sponsors + WOMD in case of Iran and nukes + WOMD + terror sponsors for Pakistan. Huh, and puny WOMD from Iraq win, those bad opoinion polls in US/UK have bad consequences.

	15-10-2002 19:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus He had it coming.

So do you.

We all have it coming

	15-10-2002 19:09									#47
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Falwell doesn't have a fatwa against him.

	15-10-2002 19:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Falwell doesn't have a fatwa against him.

maybe he should

	15-10-2002 19:50									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Eli The ruling elites of pretty much every Arab/Muslim country, except Turkey, Jordan and a number of others.

The days of such blatant empire building are long past, Eli.

	15-10-2002 19:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The days of such blatant empire building are long past, Eli.

I wonder how many Americans and Europeans will die before those days will return...

	15-10-2002 20:01									#51
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An end to Israeli state terrorism would really help us with saving American and European lives, not to mention Israeli and Palestinian ones...

	15-10-2002 20:05									#52
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"That some AlQ members may move in the border region to Afghanistan - big deal..."

It was a big enough deal to call the Iranians on it. Benign neglect is what got us into this mess. It is no longer OK.

" What it is, normal people do not know, nor will we get to know, but hey, I'd rather have Iran in peace, whatever the reasons."

I would rather have an Iran largely free from terrorism than an Iran in peace, if the choices are opposed.

"(anyway the US just claimed that they can do war on two fronts so this is clearly not related Iraq and terrorism even officially)"

Senior al Qaeda in Baghdad for medical treatment and the two aren't related? Hussein giving out money to the families of Hamas suicide bombers doesn't make the link?

Ignoring facts doesn't make them go away. We have credible independent reporting (from the Brits) about the link.

Last edited by DanS on 15-10-2002 at 20:11

	15-10-2002 20:17									#53
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"It was a big enough deal to call the Iranians on it. Benign neglect is what got us into this mess. It is no longer OK."

Your politicians are still playing the same old games.

"Senior al Qaeda in Baghdad for medical treatment and the two aren't related?"

Has that claim been in any way substantiated ? Does "medical treatment" equate "sponsoring terrorism" ?

"Hussein giving out money to the families of Hamas suicide bombers doesn't make the link?"

So do the Saudis.

"Ignoring facts doesn't make them go away."

And repeating claims does not make facts.

	15-10-2002 20:18									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Roland An end to Israeli state terrorism would really help us with saving American and European lives, not to mention Israeli and Palestinian ones...

In the beginning of this Intifada... When I was still a naive supporter of the Israeli left one Israeli commentator said the following, I think it also applies to the "war on terror".
"Any action the Israeli(in this case, the US) goverment is unwilling to take today, it will be forced to take tommorow".

It's inevitable.
"Defensive Shield" was effective, but it could be more effective had it been done a year earlier. But in that time the Israeli goverment didnt even dare to think about entering A(pal controlled) areas.

The same is correct for Iran. The US will deal with Iran one day, but will you be smart, unlike Israel, and do it before they are too strong? Before they have nuclear weapons? We both know the answer.

	15-10-2002 20:22									#55
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"Your politicians are still playing the same old games."

Please be more specific.

"Does "medical treatment" equate "sponsoring terrorism" ?"

You bet. We had his name out on the transom as a terrorist.

"So do the Saudis."

If this has continued (don't know that it has), all I can say to that is the Saudis are working counter to their long-term interests in the region.

	15-10-2002 20:25									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Senior al Qaeda in Baghdad for medical treatment and the two aren't related?

Are you sure that you don't mean Abu Nidal?

	15-10-2002 20:33									#57
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"Are you sure that you don't mean Abu Nidal?"

No, not Abu Nidal. But there's no reason to exclude solid information. Everybody can join in.

	15-10-2002 20:38									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Eli "Any action the Israeli(in this case, the US) goverment is unwilling to take today, it will be forced to take tommorow".

You want the US to clean up your enemies.

	15-10-2002 20:40									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I would rather have an Iran largely free from terrorism than an Iran in peace, if the choices are opposed.

So would I, however does making a war on the country make terrorism go away, or does it make even more of them - terrorists. Esp such a large country as Iran, it is not Palestine that you can actually block, and I wander how long will that hold. Perhaps Iran in peace can sort itself out... they do have voting rights afterall, look at the alternatives of the effects American interventions had in the past for the change of governments in much moderate countries, Greece, Chile, Vietnam... and what not, the people did not respond nicely, and how could they. However those people do not see the solution in terrorism, many in Iran do. Perhaps killing all of them would remove the threat of terrorism, but is that possible? Of course not, you can't kill every one of them, but what you can do is remove some of the problems with which their support is fuelled in the minds of normal people, that later gets into the governments trough the votes. Why did the anti -american mullahs get so many votes in Pakistan as opposed to the last elections in 1997? Don't you think that there is something wrong with the way US is perceived, and if you don't like the school bully, him beating you will not make you like him more.

The reasons for war are something else, and the war will -i think- fuel terrorism further.

	15-10-2002 20:42									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Eli In the beginning of this Intifada... When I was still a naive supporter of the Israeli left one Israeli commentator said the following, I think it also applies to the "war on terror". "Any action the Israeli(in this case, the US) goverment is unwilling to take today, it will be forced to take tommorow". It's inevitable. "Defensive Shield" was effective, but it could be more effective had it been done a year earlier. But in that time the Israeli goverment didnt even dare to think about entering A(pal controlled) areas. The same is correct for Iran. The US will deal with Iran one day, but will you be smart, unlike Israel, and do it before they are too strong? Before they have nuclear weapons? We both know the answer.

After Iraq, I beleive we will escallate our demands on Iran to stop supporting terrorism. What we do will depend on their response.