23-10-2002 18:50									#31
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Cyrion - Sorry, I should have given a more complete answer to Elephant's question about Base Trade. Here it is:

Base Trade

The basis of all trade is terrain and its utilization by cities. By working the resources of squares in their radius, cities generate trade arrows which can be allocated to taxes, research, and luxuries. There are four sources of trade arrows from terrain:: oceans, rivers, roads, and trade specials.

Ocean squares generate 2 trade arrows, the whale special generates 3.

Rivers add 1 trade arrow to any square they flow through, regardless of whether that square is capable of producing trade on its own. Although any terrain type except ocean may have a river in it, the most commonly encountered rivered squares are grassland, plains, forest, jungle and swamp.

Roads have several trade related affects. A road through grassland, plains or desert will enable the square to produce 1 trade arrow. Since these terrain types support no trade-producing specials, roads are the only way (except for rivers) of generating trade from this terrain.

A second affect of roads is that they increase the trade of any square which is already producing trade by 1 arrow. For example, a rivered forest square produces 1 arrow, building a road there (technically, a bridge) increases the trade to 2 arrows even though a road through forest terrain normally will not generate any trade. Roads do the same thing for trade specials, they increase the trade produced by 1 arrow. Railroads have the same effect as roads.

Trade Specials are, perhaps, the most important source of trade and cities are often founded nearby to take advantage of them. The trade specials and their terrain types are:

Fruit jungle 1 arrow
Silk forest 3 arrows
Furs tundra 3 arrows
Ivory glacier 4 arrows
Wine hills 4 arrows
Gems jungle 4 arrows
Spice swamp 4 arrows
Gold mountains 6 arrows

There are three additional factors that can modify the base trade that a city produces from working its terrain: government, the Colossus wonder, and the Superhighways improvement.

Government can have an important affect on trade. The Republic and Democracy forms of government cause every city to produce 1 more trade arrow from each square that is already produces trade. Under Monarchy, Communism, and Fundamentalism this same effect can be obtained when cities are celebrating WeLoveThe****Day. Type of government also affects the amount of corruption which cities distant from the capital experience. Corruption causes a reduction in the Base Trade of a city.

Colossus works much the same as the Republic and Democracy government types, it adds 1 trade arrow to every square that is already producing some trade. The effect of the Colossus expires with the discovery of flight.

The Superhighways city improvement has a pronounced affect on all aspects of trade: base trade, trade routes, and delivery bonuses. It increases the trade produced by each worked city square with a road (or rail) by 50%. Since this calculation uses Civ's integer math, a square must have at least 2 trade arrows to be affected by Superhighways. Thus, a plains square with road and Republic will increase from 2 to 3 arrows. A rivered forest square with a road, Colossus, and Democracy will increase from 4 to 6 arrows. A Gold special with road and Republic will increase from 8 to 12 arrows. It is especially important to have roads built on all trade specials before the Superhighways improvement to gain maximum benefit from this improvement.

The total trade output from terrain, road improvements, government, the Colossus (if present) and Superhighways make up a city's Base Trade. The Base Trade of a city is an important determinant of the two other aspects of trade: trade routes and caravan delivery bonuses.

	23-10-2002 19:33									#32
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quote: Originally posted by samson Base Trade The basis of all trade is terrain and its utilization by cities. By working the resources of squares in their radius, cities generate trade arrows which can be allocated to taxes, research, and luxuries. There are four sources of trade arrows from terrain:: oceans, rivers, roads, and trade specials. Roads have several trade related affects. A road through grassland, plains or desert will enable the square to produce 1 trade arrow. Since these terrain types support no trade-producing specials, roads are the only way (except for rivers) of generating trade from this terrain. A second affect of roads is that they increase the trade of any square which is already producing trade by 1 arrow. For example, a rivered forest square produces 1 arrow, building a road there (technically, a bridge) increases the trade to 2 arrows even though a road through forest terrain normally will not generate any trade. Roads do the same thing for trade specials, they increase the trade produced by 1 arrow. Railroads have the same effect as roads.

Thanks Samson for your detailed answer! I'll print it for use as a really practical reminder!

And it's exactly what I meant (or at least tried to! ): roads (and rails) effect Base Trade (even without Superhighways) by adding 1 trade to the squares you mentionned above!

	23-10-2002 21:09									#33
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Cyrion, thanks. You took my original statement to Elephant about rail/roads out of context. I was replying to his remark about railroads increasing shields by 50% and saying he had read somewhere that they had the same effect on trade. I believe that was true in Civ1, that railroads increased shields, arrows, and foods all by 50%. But in Civ2, railroads only increase shields. The 50%-per-square boost in arrows requires Superhighways.

	23-10-2002 21:09									#34
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quote: Originally posted by samson A second affect of roads is that they increase the trade of any square which is already producing trade by 1 arrow. For example, a rivered forest square produces 1 arrow, building a road there (technically, a bridge) increases the trade to 2 arrows even though a road through forest terrain normally will not generate any trade. Roads do the same thing for trade specials, they increase the trade produced by 1 arrow.

How long have I been playing and I never tried roading a swamp with Gems? Sigh...

quote: Railroads have the same effect as roads.

I assume you mean there is only a single additional trade, not one for roads and a second for rail.

	23-10-2002 21:13									#35
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Yes, El, that's what I meant.

	23-10-2002 21:13									#36
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I move this thread be added to the Great Library...

	23-10-2002 21:38									#37
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quote: About the Map size factor. What about non-standard map sizes? Is there a formula for this?

William Keenan,

The Mapsize factor appears in other aspects of the game as well. The cost of research, for example, is less on a small map and greater on a large map. The standard multuplier of research cost (20) on a small map is 4/5 that of medium map (24). And the standard multiplier on a large map (30) is 5/4 of the medium map.

In research cost, if I remember correctly, all maps larger than 'large' paid the large cost and those smaller than 'small' paid the small cost. I believe it is the same with delivery payments. In others words: No, there is not a formula based on map-area, just 3 sizes: small, medium, large on which you receive either a bonus or penalty.

I have no idea how the game handles mega maps.

	24-10-2002 12:59									#38
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Map-size factors -- I am unsure of the above ...
There seems to be some empirical evidence - not properly documented or tested I fear - that the map-size factors are governed by the active button on the map-size form (the first to appear after a new game has been selected) and is not affected by the actual size determined possibly by the use of the 'Custom' button. Any comments?

SG[1]

	24-10-2002 16:51									#39
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SG,

There is a bug to that effect, yes.

A random or custom map where the mapsize is specified will always have the correct Mapsize factor: small, medium, or large. However, if you start on a 'premade' world or, I believe, a scenario, you inherit the Mapsize factor from the last random/custom game you played.

I think this 'sticky button' bug is similar to the sticky cheat flag that happens when you start a new game after being in cheat mode.

	24-10-2002 19:39									#40
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SG,

Perhaps that needs a bit more clarification.

When a saved game is restored, the Mapsize factor is also restored. If the save was made from a game started by New or Customize World, the Mapsize factor will always correspond to the map's actual size.

However, if the saved game was made from a game started on a premade map or a scenario, the Mapsize factor will be whatever the Mapsize Button setting was before that game was started.

As a consequence of this bug, comparison games based on a restore of game saves will play the same for all players. But comparison games based on scenarios or edited maps will not. The cost of research, caravan delivery payments and perhaps other aspects of the game will be dependent on the previous state of each player's copy of Civ2.

	24-10-2002 22:02									#41
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Now just put up the old formula for calculating the ongoing trade route value and we can post this to the Great Library...

	24-10-2002 22:25									#42
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Elephant,

There's a bit more to understanding Trade Routes than the formula. I'll post on this topic in a day or so.

	31-10-2002 08:42									#43
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Did your post end up somewhere else?

	01-11-2002 01:08									#44
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No. I haven't posted my findings on Trade Routes yet.
Sorry for the delay, will try to get to it soon.

	24-11-2002 02:52									#45
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samson, with your permission I'm going to update the trade payoff guide on the CoC with your findings.

	24-11-2002 19:28									#46
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Yes, of course.

What's CoC?

	05-12-2002 19:01									#47
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*** BUMP ***

	11-12-2002 03:07									#48
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Cradle of Civilization.

http://coc.apolyton.net/

	15-03-2003 22:59									#49
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*bump*

	09-06-2004 01:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by samson The MapSizeFactor for a medium map is 1, for a small map it is 5/4, and for a large map it is 4/5.

I see no effect of a map size! I tried Normal, Small (40x50), Large (75x120) and Seeds of Greatness scenario size (86x116) maps and there is no difference:
Examples are attached: all maps are MGE, distance 10, domestic trade, undemanded commodity, same continent, Navigation/Invention/turn200 already (no x2 multiplier).
Revenues always copy the expected revenue of the normal map:
BTA=4: 1 gold
BTA=5,6,7: 2 gold
BTA=8,9: 3 gold
BTA=10,11: 4 gold
BTA=12: 5 gold
Edit: BTA (Base Trade Arrows) = Total Base Trade

Samson, do you have a savegame of your testing?

	09-06-2004 02:17									#51
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Aargh! I didn't read the page 2 of this thread before posting my last submission...

I will try to rephrase the rule to find out if I understand well:

A game started from the main menu ("Start a New game", "Customize World", "Start on Premade World", "Begin Scenario") has always a correct MapSizeFactor. This is not true for a loaded game:
A loaded game that was originally started as "Start a New game" or "Customize World" has always a correct MapSizeFactor.
Civ2 remembers/stores the Map Size of the last "Start a New game" or "Customize World" game (of the last game start (by main menu) or also a loaded one??). A loaded game that was originally started as "Start on Premade World" or "Begin Scenario" has a MapSizeFactor that corresponds to that stored value.
Is it correct?

Still...The .zip file in my last post here contains games started as "Start on Premade World", but I can't get the MapSizeFactor to work.
10 BTA shall produce 4 gold of revenue with normal size map, and 3 gold with large size map. But the LargeMap.sav always produces 4 gold...

Last edited by SlowThinker on 09-06-2004 at 02:24