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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by NeOmega
I asked you a legit question. I'll just assume you are dumb enough to trust Iraqi policemen to do the bidding of Americans. |
Good god, you ARE this stupid! 
You have to be a real asswipe to think an Iraqi policemen would not protect his own people.
You don't know much, do you, I mean about anything.
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Adroit. But this has nothing to do with oil, right? Good god, you walked right into the trap like it was a cong bungee pit. |
The depth of your density is immense.
Mike and I were discussing whether massive aid would be needed to restore Iraq, ala Afghanistan, and you think that equates to the US is attacking to secure oil.
You really are a sipmleton. 
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I know your the same guy as the idiot over at CFC who power trips all the time, but geez, Chris 62 must be your stupid alter ego. |
Your even stupider here then there, but here you have friends, there, nothing.
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Russia and France, and they are dead set against this ivasion, yet, they somehow are beginning to warm up and compromise. But you don't think the U.S. would ever compromise do you? |
And why does the interests of Paris and Moscow be of such interest to you?
Like I told you before, your no debater, you attempt to twist and turn, but fail, because basically your an idiot.
Miuke and I were discussing possible scenarios after Saddam fails the latest inspection game, and like a moron your trying to turn the thread into a "no war" speel!
Pay attention. 
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Your whole plan for occupation of Iraq was about the stupidist thing I ever read. |
Reread your own posts, they drawf anything anybody says in the stupid department.
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Those rebuttals took no time at all because they were so easy. |
Stupid too.
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Your re-occupation plan is full of obvious holes even to the most amateur of observers. Oh wait..... |
How can you "re-occupy" something you have never occupied?
Welcome to Apolyton, your density is welcome, here you will find real libitarians, and people that make it difficult to present a postion.
A simp like you hasn't got a chance!
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<- Look! now I am as funny as Chris 62. |
Nope, you lack wit as well as wisdom, but your welcome to keep making a fool of yourself.
I certainly enjoy it.
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NeOmega
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Play Pentagenesis Beta!
Feb 2002
time: 21:23
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Fool of myself? To who? It's just me and you and a couple of kids from around the world, if they bother to even take the time to read it.
Fact is, I am never going back to CFC's OT, becasue I hear from a lot of people some jerk runs it, so I went to see, and yup.
Of course, I like to be able to make "bombastic" statements, and not have some hypocrite threaten to delete it, event though that Alabacities of Athenae guy sure can be insulting and "bombastic" himself.
I like it over here though..... cuz I find your lameness quite entertaining.
Oh... cops and the underworld.... it happens, especially in international politics.
Oh, and I did take the time to see what the discussion was about.....
Oh, and, I have lots of "friends" as you call them, I would more likely call them fellow enthusiasts, at CFC in the C&C forums, you know, the real forums.
wait, I forgot, I gotta spatter it with LOL's to make it look like I am being condensending, and make myself feel like someone is laughing at my stupidity.............
.......
Some more fo r good measure, so Chris' feelings will get hurt real bad, maybe he'll even cry.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by NeOmega
Yes, and how fun it is watching your powers become nothing here. |
I'm a poster here, you Imbecile, not a moderator.
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You have squandered, faltered, and looked a total fool. |
You shouldn't talk about yourself like that, it's not healty.
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Look at yourself boy. |
Boy...
HA HA HA HA HA
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You better go home to your little kingdom before you cause yourself any more embarrassment. |
The only embarrisment here is you sonny, and what do you want to bet that you will regret having done this, and it has nothing to do with CFC? 
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I came here not to attack, but to be free to fight the likes of you. |
Your doing a worse job here then your attempts there, you really are somewhat limited intelectually, aern't you. 
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No threats here, in fact, even better, you flame hard here. |
Poly rules for poly days.
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You are such a hypocrite. |
HA HA HA HA HA
God, you are stupid.
Mark likes his board this way, CFC doesn't.
Hypocrite...HA HA HA HA
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But hey, you told me flaming causes hard feelings. |
The difference is, I don't care about you, you dense little boy.
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I don't have any, I am having fun! Are you having fun Chris 62? |
With a lightweight like you?
Your not even a challenge.
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If not I can stop. |
You can do whatever you want, I can use more laughs, and you sure do provide plenty!
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GOD BLESS APOLYTON! |
I'm sure Mark and Dan appreciate the sentiment!
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Well Mike, carrying a legal punishment is distinctly different from whether a place is safe for the common folk or not. |
The question is what is a "legal punishment" - if an armed group comes in and takes over by force, imposese it's will be edict, and then determines who and under what conditions it will kill people, for whatever "offenses," how is that different in substance?
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Surely the US carries out its own share of death penalties?  |
Not for adultery, and we don't beat the **** out of people for not wearing beards, letting women work in their offices, etc. Nor do we prohibit women from being examined by male doctors, and prohibit them from going to school to become doctors.
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Maybe you disagree with their laws, but a country with harsh laws is not the same as a lawless country. |
Define "country" - I don't define an armed group of fanatics with military control of an arbitrary geographical area as a "country" let alone one with laws.
It's just a different brand of rape, plunder and pillage. Sometimes, the same brand, because Taleban conduct in many cases was indistiguishable from Dostum's thugs.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
I think it's REAL important to use IRAQI police as quickly as possible, US military SHOULD not be used to patrol Iraq population centers, only military bases, that's for a start.
Also, try to avoid ANY dudes with strong links to Saddam, it will only cause problems. |
I agree with you on local constabulary and police forces.
We have no choice, anyway, since we don't have enough arabic speakers. The problem is in getting those locals to deal effectively with resistance fighters, fanatics, etc.
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We make it Crystal clear that they tow the anti-terror line, or they can join Saddam at the bottom of a hole, and that includes the Saudis. |
Even the most brutal dictatorships in history have never been able to effectively control all their citizens all the time. Even if you have all the leadership firmly in line, there will be flunkies down the line sympathetic to the other side, and all they have to do is be inept enough that the other guys can operate.
If we get embroiled in Saudi, you can bet your last dollar the **** will hit the fan like we've never seen - infidels controlling the territory surrounding the holy cities?
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A military governer at first, followed by a selection of non-Saddam flunkies as possible politians, plus forcing a fair Constiution on Iraq, that would forbid by law anymore strongmen. |
Constitutions are only worth the collective desire to abide by them. And we can have guys surfacely friendly to US interests, while making deals for their own short-term survival. Kind of like the way the Saudi royals balance their duties as keepers of the holy cities, lackeys of the US, and plunderers of the natural wealth of the kingdom. Nobody really likes the greedy pigs, but they manage to maneuver and make deals so that every side gets most of what it wants most of the time.
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What I said seems to be the idea, but it's important to remember Iraq isn't Afghanistan, it has an easy access to a vast source of funds, and won't require massive US aid the way Afghanistan does. |
Three problems - one is that release of that production capacity in a slow global economy will floor the price of oil, causing problems in a lot of other oil producer economies.
Otherwise, you play ball and don't sell as much oil, and your gross revenue goes down, while Iraq still has huge foreign debts (Russia will want theirs paid as a condition of going along through the UN), and reparations due to Kuwait. Plus most of the damage from the Iran-Iraq war was never rebuilt. Iraq will still need a shitload of money to fix it's problems.
On top of that, you have to consider the US cost for the deployment of its forces and equipment on garrison duties - that alone will be a tidy sum every month.
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I think we are all sick and tired of being the world's scapegoat by every Leftist and moron with a grevence, this is a big chance to bury that nonsense once and for all. |
If we do things right, and make the necessary commitments for the necessary time frame. Considering the long term vision and focus of American politics, I wouldn't bet my life savings. Otherwise, this is also an opportunity for us to **** ourselves silly if it's mishandled.
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Also, the UN MUST be kept as FAR AWAY as possible from interfearing, all the ENTIRE process will fall to pieces. |
I agree, but US resistance to UN involvement will be used as a propaganda tool by everybody. And precisely because the UN couldn't accomplish anything if it tried, there will be a lot of folks who want the UN to be there.
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And the result would be ME's that hate us and commit terror?
We already have plenty.
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Most of the ones that hate us only hate us a little, and pretty much pro forma. They can't be motivated to do much about it, because they've got bigger fish to fry, in just going through their daily existence. The Israelis have proven just how effective escalating up with those people is. No end in sight.
Al Qaeda and closely related groups have inflicted maybe 5,000 fatalities, done a few billions in damage, a few tens of billions in indirect damage and costs. On the overall scheme of things, that's pretty minor, and until recently, pretty sporadic. It doesn't take much to fill up a car with homemade dynamite and nails, or a belt. Smaller, more frequent, totally decentralized ops like are common in Israel, directed against Americans all over the world on a continuous basis. As long as you can keep up a supply of fanatics willing to die for your casue, the relative return on investment for these kind of operations is huge.
Look at the investigative resouces being used just on this one sniper in DC, for example. Let alone the investigative resources used in 9/11. Now assume you have 300-400 open investigations (of actual terror acts), more incidents every day, in and out of the US, and you have long term commitments to military occupation, military strikes, domestic security, border control, investigation, and prevention. The manpower drain in the relevant organizations is going to be huge, and so is the cost.
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Don't see a lot of downside Reb, in fact, it would mean and end to a decade of useless and hurtful sanctions, and a clear message that we are through playing games. |
An end to sanctions would be useful, but I really question whether we are prepared for a decisive engagment with radical Islamic fundamentalism on a global scale.
quote:
For too many years politics has become this endless game of lies, with complex rules that allow nations to behave horrobly yet accuse others of causing it, we see this all the time, 80% of the 3rd world blames the US for something.
Fine. |
Hell, in 90% of the third world, the US IS guilty of something. They don't hate our asses because they really, truly, secretly want to be just like us. 
The only difference really is that the US is the party universally blamed, but far from the only party with its hands covered in blood, dirt and money.
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Now we will do something about it, if we have to kill every fundementalist medieval nut to do it, so be it. |
Unless we engage in the biggest genocide in history, which we ain't prepared to do, the pool of potential fanatics expands faster than we can kill 'em. Another choice would be a sort of modern crusade, where we go into the mosques and arrest and remove everyone whose message we don't like. That takes a lot of occupation forces and a lot of time, and the harder we push, the harder they'll push back. Who'll break first? Economically, politically? This is an enemy that once you decisively engage, you don't dare back away from.
The downside that I see is that Bush & Co. are really not prepared to follow through to the end, nor are they prepared to run the political risk of either pushing for decisive confrontation, or massive transformational efforts in both nation building and in changing the perception of the US foreign policy towards the Islamic world.
Once you actually get on and ride the tiger, it's a bit late to ask yourself how are you going to get back off without having your ass chomped?
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes I was. Don't get me wrong. I'm not longing for a return of those monsters. I'm just pointing out that Afganistan was more stable under them, which is something you pointed out also. I'm defeinately not condoning anything they did. I'm glad they are gone. |
Stability? In areas where you were a Sunni Pashtun who didn't care to educate any female relatives at home, or play music, videos, use paper bags or fly kites.
Of course, if you were a Shi'ite living in Herat, or a member of the Hazara ethnic grouping, or a Turkic Afghan, or indeed any other non-favoured ethnic minority or religious minority then life wasn't stable- laws would come and go, arbitrarily change (one year the Bamiyan statues are up, the next they're down, one year paper bags are o.k., the next they're not...
Saying that life was more stable under the Taleban is a gross over-simpification:
'The images brought back by our team, shot in secret for the most part, reveal the tragic situation of a people cut off from the world and subjected to the Taleban regime ruling through religious decrees.
The selected approach enabled us to touch upon the various aspects of a painful and unavoidable reality, common to more than 15 million people: schooling, religious practices, work, society, everything is under the heaviest supervision. An iron fundamentalism which Afghans and humanitarian NGO’s resist as best they can. Our team followed them in their daily underground life.
Interviews after interviews, we realised how mercilessly the Talebans stifled their “ fellow citizens ”. People are frightened to speak. Any opposition to the Islamic fundamentalists is dangerous. Some of these opponents have to hide, like those villagers from a Kabul district who run a mixed school. Others flaunt their opposition, like this young 25 year-old man who is not afraid to display television sets - devilish objects in this country - in his shop window. Let us add in passing that his shop was burned down last year.
The indiscriminate implementation of the Koran forces some trades to a minimal activity and subsequent impoverishment : barbers are reduced to hair-cutting, photographers to passport photographs , women to sewing and nursing ( a feminist association, RAWA, fights against this discrimination).
Dentists and doctors work in deplorable health conditions.
Those who have no other choice than to leave Afghanistan, flee to neighbouring Pakistan where the living conditions awaiting them are hardly more pleasant than those they knew in their country.
Through those testimonies, and through interviews of Talebans, mollahs in their religious schools and Pakistani officials, as well as archives from USSR war period, we follow what was the Afghan people daily life, today under the bombs. '
Directors: Djaffer Ait Aoudia & Céline Metzger
Editing: Véronique Landolfini
Producer : Patrice Barrat
Article Z © 2001
from:
http://www.articlez.fr/english/index.asp
The attack on Kuwait by Iraq was a surprise- to the Western powers who could see the troops massing on the border, and to the Kuwaitis and other interested members of the Arab League- Kuwait had bought off Saddam before, had even made generous loans to Saddam and been his ally during the Iraq/Iran War- they believed it was minatory sabre rattling to allow Saddam leeway with a schedule of overdue loan repayments. Intelligence is only worth anything if you have the people able to act upon it.
I look forward to more eulogies to the little known beneficial aspects of other regimes like the Taleban's-
the Khmer Rouge as agents of rural renewal, how Stalin and Hitler managed to promote 'classical' values rather than modernism in art, and Khomeini's Iran- how to increase attendance at mosques.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Were the Taliban welcomed as saviors by the majority of Afganis? Yes. Was crime virtually abolished? Yes. After fifteen years of complete insecurity, the totalitarianism of the Taliban was considered a blessing.
The arbitrariness and capricisousness don't mean the system wasn't stable.
The Taliban are evil. That doesn't mean that they didn't give most of Afganistan a rest from the decades of brutal war. |
Honestly, I just wonder if you read what you write.
Arbitrary: derived from mere opinion, not based on law, discretionary, capricious, despotic
Capricious:unaccountable change of mind or conduct, tendency to these, capricious: incalculable
Certain lack of stability implied there... Of course the 'system' wasn't stable. All anyone could predict was its continuing despotic nature. If you were a Muslim and expected Shari'a law, then what was the nonsense about paper bags, for instance? Ironic considering the Muslim Arabs gave the West advanced paper technology (paper based on wood pulp, not rags).
You assert a majority of the Afghans welcomed the Taleban- you don't show figures to bolster this claim. Presumably you wouldn't be including the Aghanis who didn't belong to either the Pashtun ethnic grouping or who were Shi'as- peoples such as the Hazaras, Turkmens, Tajiks, and those living on the borders with Iran, whose brand of Shi'ism was more permissive than the rigid fanatical uneducated version of Sunni Islam favoured by the Taleban. And you'd also be excluding any women with employment, in fact, any women with intelligence, for that matter, and any surving ex-communists. Given that the Taleban were still fighting the Northern Alliance in the areas of Afghanistan not under the dead hand of Taleban oppression, I'm not sure where this oasis of stability resided:
'An opposition to check the many decrees and decisions of the Taleban, their religious police and their reactionary whims is direly needed in Afghanistan. Any effective opposition would have checked the recent Taleban directives on the issues of banning of women from driving, asking UN agencies to dismiss their female members, raiding of aid agency projects including hospitals and the requirement of turbans for students, wearing of IDs by Afghan minority of Hindus etc. '
from:
http://www.institute-for-afghan-stu...1_sound_opp.htm
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Honestly, I just wonder if you read what you write. |
You fail to understand the essential parts and focus on only those things that make no sense to you. You fail to understand that after fifteen years of bandits, rape, murder, rockets falling from the sky, governemnts rising and falling, that when that stopped happening, people welcomed it.
The not being able to use paper bags and fly kites is weird. Not having Tajik guerillas rain katyushas down on your head is a blessing. Not having Pashtun warlords roll into town and rape you is a blessing. Not fearing that some bandit army is going to steal all you have left is a blessing. After fifteen years of rape, and theft, and murder, when the Taliban took control and stopped all of that, Afganis and most of the rest of the world called it stablity (including as I've repeated three times now THE US STATE DEPARTMENT).
Stop trying to measure the system through your Melbourne eyes and try and imagine what life must have been like for an Afgani villager from 1979-1994. When the Taliban ended the lawlessness of fifteen years, yes, the country experienced stablity. Would it seem stable to someone who lives in Australia? Not if you just stepped off the airplane into Kabul in 1999. But you continue to fail to appreciate that stablity is relative. 
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
[Q] You fail to understand the essential parts and focus on only those things that make no sense to you. ... |
You have no idea what my life experiences have been, and instead of supplying facts- such as what the support for the Taleban was, who welcomed it, you lapse into the worse kind of patronising conservative retorts and airy assertions. My 'Melbourne' eyes, indeed...
So the U.S. State Dept. 'welcomed' the Taleban- the Taleban who were supported by the Pakistani military and intelligence services and bankrolled by Saudi money? I should be shocked, I suppose...if I didn't know of the links between the American military/secret services and Pakistan, and how America turns a blind eye to the excesses of the Saudi regime.
Yes, stability is relative- but without an agenda, without a system of law, what could Afghanis expect from the Taleban? No safety if they were from an ethnic minority not favoured by the Pashtun fundamentalists- and yet Islam is an inclusive religion, that seeks not to discriminate between races.
The stability of the grave:
News Service 171/98
AI INDEX: ASA 11/07/98
3 SEPTEMBER 1998
Afghanistan
Thousands of civilians killed
following Taleban takeover of Mazar-e Sharif
Taleban guards deliberately and systematically killed thousands of ethnic Hazara civilians during the first three days following their military takeover of Mazar-e Sharif on 8 August 1998, according to new information received by Amnesty International.
Since their arrival in Mazar-e Sharif, the Taleban have sealed the area to foreign media and independent observers. Amnesty International's information is based on testimonies from eyewitnesses and surviving members of the victims' families.
The vast majority of those killed were from the Hazara ethnic group living in Zara'at, Saidabad, and Elm Arab areas of the city. The victims were killed deliberately and arbitrarily in their homes, in the streets where their bodies were left for several days, or in locations between Mazar-e Sharif and Hairatan. Many of those killed were civilians including women, children and the elderly who were shot trying to flee the city.
"This latest information shows yet again how the Taleban disregard internationally recognized humanitarian laws on the treatment of civilians in armed conflict," Amnesty International said. "The Taleban leadership must give clear and direct orders to their troops to uphold international safeguards."
"Foreign governments bankrolling or giving military support to the Taleban bear some responsibility for failing to rein in the Taleban's worst excesses. They must publicly condemn these latest atrocities and pressure the Taleban to immediately release all prisoners held simply because of their ethnic identity and allow independent investigators into the area."
"Amnesty International repeats its call to all governments to ensure that all the warring factions in Afghanistan do not receive any military equipment or training which could be used to commit human rights abuses," the organization added.
In at least one instance, a group of prisoners were reportedly executed in front of villagers near the city of Hairatan. Some 70 men were reportedly executed in a Halal [Islamic slaughter of animals] killing ritual at the tomb of Abdul Ali Mazari.
Eleven Iranian nationals (ten diplomats and one journalist) are said to have been killed when Taleban guards entered the Iranian Consulate in Mazar-e Sharif. Despite conflicting reports about their fate, eyewitnesses say that their bodies were left in the consulate for two days, before being buried in a mass grave at the Sultan Razieh girls school.
Following their takeover, Taleban guards imposed a curfew in the city. In the Uzbek populated areas, they told people to hand in their weapons, while in the Hazara area, they told people to stay in their homes. They then entered Hazara houses one by one, killing older men and children and taking away young men without any explanation. In some houses, they also took away young women as Kaniz (maid-servant) saying they would be married off to the Taleban militia.
Detainees, reportedly totalling thousands, were transferred in military vehicles to detention centres in Mazar-e Sharif and Shebarghan and interrogated to identify their ethnic identity. Non-Hazaras were released after a few days.
Former detainees told Amnesty International how all of them were beaten, sometimes severely, during their detention. Hundreds were taken by air to Kandahar and many others taken during the night to fields in the surrounding areas of Mazar-e Sharif and Shebarghan and executed.
Severe restrictions have been imposed on the movement of Afghan people in and out of Mazar-e Sharif. Families who have managed to leave the area have told Amnesty International that they have been stopped at many checkpoints on the way. At each check point, Taleban guards stopped them asking if there were Hazaras among them and took away anyone whom they suspected of being a Hazara. Hazara men and boys younger than 12-years-old have been taken to Jalalabad prison while women and girls have been sent to Sarshahi camp.
Amnesty International is urging the Taleban to bring an end to the killing of non-combatants and prisoners by their militia, and to release all prisoners whom they have arrested solely on account of their ethnic identity.
The organization is also calling for an international body, with a clearly demonstrated independent, impartial and competent structure, to be set up to investigate these human rights abuses with a view to identifying the perpetrators and recommending means of bringing them to justice. '
Ah yes, Pashtun warlords...
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:23
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silly Ming, at least with Saddam there, the numerous factions in that country aren't murdering each other...
I would actually give the thought of attacking Iraq a chance if there was a good reason, but there isn't.
1)Saddam has WMD and could smuggle a nuke into the country.
Big deal, that requires improving domestic security, so Saddam and every other nuke toting fool can't commit an atrocity on American soil.
2)Saddam is hording all the resources and his people are suffering...
Hmmm, actually Ming, it is our fault his people are suffering. The sanctions against Iraq prevent things like food, medical supplies, and industrial/agricultural infrastructure materials from improving that third world country.
3) Saddam poses a military threat to that region
Yes, but that powderkeg would be worse with US military involvement... anything short of a full mobilization as in WW2, would ignite that powder keg. And I don't think that Bush will be very popular if he initiates the draft and tries to send millions of Americans into Baghdad.
The biggest reason not to go to war would be the amount of casualties the US would sustain in an urban warfare environment. Remember the towns and cities in Europe during WW2? That's what Iraq will be. House to house, block by block, massive ground mobilization... massive amounts of infantry... large numbers of casualties. Is Iraq the hill we want to send an entire generation of young people to die on? ANd for what... a bunch of oil... pfft... get the Republican party outta office... 1st Bush... OIL MAN... 2nd Bush... OIL MAN... D!ck Cheney.... OIL MAN... I'm sure the deeper we dig, the more connections to big oil we will find.
FIght the Power.
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NeOmega
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Play Pentagenesis Beta!
Feb 2002
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
The biggest reason not to go to war would be the amount of casualties the US would sustain in an urban warfare environment. Remember the towns and cities in Europe during WW2? That's what Iraq will be. House to house, block by block, massive ground mobilization... massive amounts of infantry... large numbers of casualties. Is Iraq the hill we want to send an entire generation of young people to die on? ANd for what... a bunch of oil... pfft... get the Republican party outta office... 1st Bush... OIL MAN... 2nd Bush... OIL MAN... D!ck Cheney.... OIL MAN... I'm sure the deeper we dig, the more connections to big oil we will find.
FIght the Power. |
I disagree, I am not afraid of massive American casualties..... in fact this is one of the least of my concerns, as I believe Saddam would once again prove to be a pushover.
However, killing civilians, and bringing upon our head even more hatred from the Arab world, especially the man on the street, to me is illogical. If we attack we are asking to prove to ourselves in the near future how long we can rely on our strategic reserves, and pay humongous amounts per barrel to non-opec nations. Then we would understand what a "bad" economy is.
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19-10-2002 19:41
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