24-10-2002 04:44									#31
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Ouch... no luxs? Irrigation isn't that bad to miss, but if you don't have anything you can trade with, it's going to be hard to catch up in tech. Of course, you can hope that one of the AIs is missing horses, so you could trade away your only one, but still, this looks like quite a challenge.

Good luck!

DeepO

	24-10-2002 04:47									#32
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One second view: are those white blobs in the South-East gems or something? I thought they were shields, but now I see some smaller white things in the central part... I don't recognise it from this zoom level.

DeepO

	24-10-2002 04:56									#33
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DeepO, I think they are cows, but my eyes are not what they use to be.

	24-10-2002 05:55									#34
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hmm, they look like gems to me.

Best advice i can give:

build units that can be upgraded indeffenitely(spearman---->mech. infantry )
make sure you got a huge bank account for when you need to do so

it's somewhat simular to 'so very cold'

good luck , and keep us posted on this one

	24-10-2002 12:16									#35
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They are gems, and are located where Rome once was. I have even 2 luxuries, the main part of the island has incense. So my chances aren't so bad after all.

The game went unspectacular so far. I blocked the Roman expansion with a fortified spearman on the isthmus and built cities on my part very dense, 2-3 tiles apart. Lots of coastal cities, as they are the only ones that will grow. The lakes will also help to make some bucks.

I succeeded to bully some techs out of Rome, but soon they turned to be rather a brake than an accelerator for me. I finished them, because I wanted their gems and they didn't offer me an acceptable trade deal. I begun to build an FP SE of the big lake, in the hope to move my Palace later to greener pastures.

Overall, compared to SVC, I have some benefits, that make my game easier:

• My island isn't completely cold, it has a green patch.
  
• SVC was on a huge map, while mine is only standard size. That counts, because the poor terrain makes it hard to go for a science victory, so domination and conquest gain importance and they are harder to achieve on a huge map.
  
• SVC was on deity, while this one is only monarch.
  
• I have some trade goods and the hope, that I have a monopoly on them.
  

	24-10-2002 14:09									#36
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Two luxuries even, you're spoiled However, I thought gems only appeared on mountains, you're playing with a modded game I guess.

Did you had any chance of building the GL? in this kind of map, on monarch, that would be the best bet. You have a very decent shot at it if you beeline, and after taking the Romans out all you need to do is make some money, build up culture from temples and libraries everywhere, and wait until someone finds you. After that, you're still not in a rosy position, but it should be doable. Without the GL, I would focus on the civ that has it: conquer the city with the GL before you discover education with everything you have (20 horsemen wil take out a couple of riflemen if they need to), and the boost you get from that should make everything possible.

DeepO

	24-10-2002 16:30									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Two luxuries even, you're spoiled However, I thought gems only appeared on mountains, you're playing with a modded game I guess.

No, I play with standard rules, but gems can also appear in jungle. Just Caesar already succeeded to cut it, except the one eastern tile.

quote: Did you had any chance of building the GL? in this kind of map, on monarch, that would be the best bet.

No . It has already been built.

	24-10-2002 17:54									#38
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In that case, focus your war efforts on the city that has built it, and be careful not to get education before conquering it. I know, sometimes these cities are well defended, but you should be able to conquer it, using war chariots, longbowmen or knights. It will make your game much easier

I once violated a ROP in the industrial age just to get it on my version of the SVC, and it worked like a charm. It doesn't matter if the turn after that you lose the city again, you just have to hold on to it for the beginning of next turn... And immediately after gaining the techs, you can start trading them away to those who haven't got them already.

DeepO

	24-10-2002 18:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO In that case, focus your war efforts on the city that has built it, and be careful not to get education before conquering it. I know, sometimes these cities are well defended, but you should be able to conquer it, using war chariots, longbowmen or knights. It will make your game much easier

I'll probably need at least Astronomy (if not Navigation) to ship my WC's safely, which comes after Education .

	24-10-2002 18:02									#40
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Sir Ralph, could you post a save?

	24-10-2002 20:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I'll probably need at least Astronomy (if not Navigation) to ship my WC's safely, which comes after Education .

Ouch... a dead lock. Well, forget about the GL then, and do it the hard way. But keep us informed of your progress

DeepO

	24-10-2002 21:02									#42
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Well, I just made the jump to Deity

No restart needed (so far)

As it turned it's a pretty small island with no one on it (yet)
(missed a wonder by a very narrow margin (and changes are very much against me building the great library )
Around 800bc, suddenly they all appear(one with setler, he will have to go , sooner or later :evilgrin

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	24-10-2002 21:10									#43
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800bc and there all here

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	24-10-2002 21:35									#44
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 Sir Ralph, could you post a save?

Of course I can. Here's the current savegame...

	24-10-2002 21:36									#45
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... and here the 4000BC save.

Attachment: cleopatra of the egyptians, 4000 bc.sav
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	24-10-2002 22:45									#46
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Drew Japan on a plane flight yesterday and tried the ultra-early temple. I think Catt's right. You can live without it, but once you've tried it, you probably won't go back.

BTW, I'm making book on Ralph. 100 to one odds he wins. There's always a way on Monarch.

Last edited by jshelr on 24-10-2002 at 23:30

	24-10-2002 23:06									#47
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[Quote]You can live without it, but once you[ve tried it, you probably won't go back.[Quote]

I agree. Similar to industrious workers - some people just can't deal with the normal ones once they've played an industrious civ. Even I feel pain playing Japan after playing Egypt.

As for the odds on Sir Ralph, I'm not betting against him.

-Arrian

	24-10-2002 23:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian [Quote]You can live without it, but once you[ve tried it, you probably won't go back.[Quote] I agree. Similar to industrious workers - some people just can't deal with the normal ones once they've played an industrious civ. Even I feel pain playing Japan after playing Egypt. -Arrian

This is soooo true.

I was thinking of writing up a "Things a Newbie Should Know/Do/Read" thread, and planned on including "Play an Industrious Civ."

I started with industrious and I despise playing anything else. They're just so sloooooow.

I really wish I'd started with non-industrious, as I know I'm missing a lot of good fun but the slowness just brings me down. Especially once I get Democracy.
Vroom!

	25-10-2002 00:03									#49
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I used to have the same 'industrious' problem , but after a couple non-indus. games, it fades.
IT is a shock though to suddenly go back ,(as I did in your game with the Egyptians)

	25-10-2002 01:32									#50
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It would be 100% for me, except for my propensity for firing up Civ3 after hitting the bars hard on Friday and Saturday. Usually provides lots of laughs when I look at those games the next day, except when the next day involves waking up in front of my computer after "falling asleep" in my computer chair.

	25-10-2002 03:01									#51
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Here's part 2 of the story (the result of today). The past 500 years have been very successful.

It took some more suicide galleys to make contact to the Greeks and Babylonians to my south. They have a continent and an island of their own, 2 different luxuries and their terrain is a paradise compared to mine. Surprise, surprise, both were, albeit more advanced than me, still in the ancient age. I had saved about 2000 gold and succeeded to trade maps and to buy techs for a good price. I bought The Republic and switched immediately. That helped a lot. On the island was an unclaimed iron resource. I ship-chained a settler over and beat Hammurabi to it very close.

From the island I sent more suicide galleys to the west, where I suspected to find the rest of the gang. Yes, there were the Indians and Chinese, and soon I had traded contact to the Japanese and Russians too. They were in the medieval age, but not far. The Indians and Chinese had Monotheism, Feudalism and most likely Theology and Chivalry, may be even Education. But they lacked Engineering, so I thought, they can't have more than roughly 4 techs lead, plus Monarchy, which doesn't count. The Russians and Japanese were not so advanced. I sold all I had, including maps, contacts and the rest of my cash, and managed to buy Feudalism, which I whored to Russia and Japan to get Monotheism.

After I had discovered Engineering, I sold it again to Japan and Russia (India and China had it meanwhile) and got Theology and Chivalry. This made it possible to switch a good prebuilt wonder to the Sistine, which I built 900AD . It rules to have civs with a different level of techs. It's so much easier to trade than if all AIs are even.

Now it's 1050AD. I have Education and Astronomy and can trade the latter with Russia for Printing press. So I'm even in tech and together with India leader by score:

India 761
Egypt 761
Greece 728
Babylon 698
China 619
Russia 490
Japan 488
Rome (gone) 87.

But I can't hold that status for long, as I have a serious growth problem and have sold all, including my soul. So I have no other choice than to prepare for war. The target is chosen easily: Babylon. Actually I'm building an army of 20 WC's, which I will upgrade to Knights. Tomorrow Babylon is toast.

I'm pretty sure now, that I can win the game.

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	25-10-2002 04:52									#52
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Charge

	25-10-2002 16:47									#53
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To bad: no one bet against SR, despite the 100 to one odds.

	25-10-2002 18:20									#54
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Come on, bet against me! Hint: I just called the store and they said "Anno 1503" is out today. That's the game I waited for since long. So I might hurry and make a lot of mistakes .

But again, if I take Babylon (and I will!) and get a leader to move my Palace to Babylon city (the city in the very center of Babylon), the fate of this game is sealed, as nobody will be able to outproduce or outresearch me then.

	26-10-2002 05:15									#55
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Short report:

Conquered Babylon, except 3 cities. But the war was pointless, because I must be in the leader hell. I had many elite victories, but no leader to move my palace. Now I have 2 useless territories, one cold, which doesn't grow, and one 95% corrupt. I saved 3 Babylonian cities and placed some elites around, and will try to make a leader as soon as the Babylonians build a new unit. Will continue so as long as war weariness allows it (I'm a Republic).

To attack another civ is hazard at this point, and there is no war going I might join. I have problems to keep up in tech. I'm in the industrial age and one tech behind (+ one optional). I hope to get ToE, I'm prebuilding the wonder in my best city (size 7, almost not corrupt). Building wonders gets more and more hard, as the AIs have all core cities size 12 and soon even above it.

It's 1470AD. If I don't get a leader soon to move my palace, things look bad. But I don't worry, yet. I'm still thinking I'll win that game.

So still nobody bets against me?

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	27-10-2002 01:10									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph So still nobody bets against me?

Depends upon what victory conditions you have checked.

	27-10-2002 01:31									#57
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We have the utmost confidence in you. Grab them by the nose and kick them in the a** as Patton said.

	27-10-2002 02:04									#58
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i'm willing to say 95%+, but i usually get bored when i'm the largest power by far (usually middle industrial).

	27-10-2002 03:45									#59
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Then you might like this one Uber

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	27-10-2002 23:25									#60
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First, great opening post, jshelr.

Before I get to the temple debate, what struck me was your comment about sending out Settlers with your ancient era attacks forces. What for? CF-ing is pretty much a non-issue, especially as long as you starve and / or poprush towns down to 1.

I generally do build very early temples, unless I know I have to go maniacally warmonger very early, and / or I have at least 2 luxuries immediately available. Where possible though, I absolutely want the benefits of: 1 happy cit, territory expansion, long-term culture, and, sometimes MOST important, the stepping stone to Cathedrals (I love Sistine if I can get it).

Put it this way... I sometimes think of the game as "Civ3: The Pursuit of Happiness." So yeah, Temples are usually a must.

Re Sir Ralph: You gotta be kidding (Well done above, btw. Can we say Cavs versus Hoplites?).

Re me: 100%, but only on the games I choose to play... I'm a little picky about my starts, like Arrian, although I pretty much agree with the premise that Monarch is almost always winnable.