24-10-2002 23:32									#31
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As I stated Like it or not, we ARE a despotism. Just because the President, the Despot, CHOOSES to allow people to influence his actions does not mean it is not still his choice. We may have had some kind, generous, enightened Despots as our leaders so far, willing to give us our ways, that does not make them any less of a despot.

And, no, many governments would not follow suit. Most have checks and balances that are impossible in this little situation since no matter what we do, there can only be one playing the game and having the final say.

And as far as in game goes, those decisions have been very despotic, looking out for us first.

	24-10-2002 23:55									#32
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Despots usually end up taking care of themselves- clouded by their endless power and developing megalomania, and i don't see this happening here, so far our system works, and it shows every sign of a system that will keep on working.
you might say we are militaritic, imperialistic and racist- but why despots, our citizens live well, and will keep on living well and feel they are involved, those that are not just leave the game- i think most of the citizens will agree on that, and not because they are forced by the regime to say so- as the case goes for real Despotic nations.

	25-10-2002 02:09									#33
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Unortho, I applaud you for trying to back up such a silly position. I find myself having to argue such positions pretty often in court, and while I sometimes convince myself that I'm right just to make the argument more believable, in the end the Judge brings me back to earth with a resounding NO to my unreasonable request.

You know and I know and a seventh grade Civics student all know that we're not a Despotism. Our President is a figurehead, not a dictator. The country is run by a ruling elite, not unlike a Roman Senate or an Oligarchy. No one holds absolute power, power is shared, and that pretty much rules out your Despot argument.

A "despot game" is more like the succession games that are played on other sites, where each person plays a set # of turns then hands it off to the next guy.

BUT, I am intregued by your suggestion that we RP more of our "badguy" history. Frankly, I don't buy into the conquest-guilt that many of our player do. All great civilizations from history, without exception, are considered great because of their conquests and innovations. I try to emulate them when I play my games and I find that conquest is an invaluable part of success in this game.

RP-wise, I don't mind if we play a nation who's trying to set an example for the rest of the world, or a nation who's clearly out to conquer the world, so long as there's some good drama, stories, and activity as a result.

--Togas

	25-10-2002 02:21									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Togas You know and I know and a seventh grade Civics student all know that we're not a Despotism. --Togas

In this day and age, I don't think there are many 7th graders out there that even know who the President of the United States (without a hint) is or where South Africa is or what happened in Vietnam or even that the Gulf War was in 1991-1992. I daresay as well that those things are beyond most of adolescent America, and they care little for their future or their past. I think it's truly sad.

I know High School students, COLLEGE students even who have no clue about the world they live in. As long as daddy makes car payments and buys them a house someday it doesn't matter. Sad state these days. Sorry to be off subject.

	25-10-2002 02:22									#35
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You stole the ADF! (And I didn't notice till now, ) It's ok.

Un, I see a flaw in your plan:
You say we are a barbaric peoples, but we can remain that way in Democracy, because it is barbaric to lie. And if we lie about our true intentions of enslaving the world by projecting a false government, we'll still be barbaric!

Good luck getting anyone else to _really_ support you though.

	25-10-2002 02:25									#36
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As Togas stated... we are an oligarchy at worst

So, I'll repeat the quote:

"If you live in a country run by committee, be on the committee." -Graham Summer

	25-10-2002 02:25									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Togas BUT, I am intregued by your suggestion that we RP more of our "badguy" history. Frankly, I don't buy into the conquest-guilt that many of our player do. All great civilizations from history, without exception, are considered great because of their conquests and innovations. I try to emulate them when I play my games and I find that conquest is an invaluable part of success in this game. RP-wise, I don't mind if we play a nation who's trying to set an example for the rest of the world, or a nation who's clearly out to conquer the world, so long as there's some good drama, stories, and activity as a result. --Togas

Exactly, I don't care what we RP, but lets do it. There have been countless numbers of 'lets RP the nice guy' threads. All have died into obscurity. If people don't want that, perhaps they will agree to this.

So by damn, let us glory in our barbarianism, bask in the knowledge that ours is the only true way, and show the world that they should bend knee or move out of the way.

	25-10-2002 02:53									#38
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Unortho, I don't mean to say we shouldn't "glory in our barbarism" as you put it. I'm just saying that, in-game and otherwise, I don't see Apolytonia as a Despotism; the one thing I see as applying is pop-rushing, which we did quite brutally in the early days of our civ.

Myself, I see us evolving from conquerors to manipulative Machiavellians (sp), trying to incite wars between our rivals but keeping on a smile and a shiny, civilized guise. This would fit especially well with a Diplomatic win.

	25-10-2002 03:00									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic I know High School students, COLLEGE students even who have no clue about the world they live in. As long as daddy makes car payments and buys them a house someday it doesn't matter. Sad state these days. Sorry to be off subject.

Point taken. You're probably right. I learned about Civics and government when I was in 7th grade, and I'm sure a few of us here were the somewhat geeky kids who were enthralled by such ideas at a young age.

MOST kids, you're right, probably just doodled their way through Civics and passed notes about.

--Togas

	25-10-2002 04:03									#40
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Togas, what an interesting coincedence-I'M in the 7th grade, and most kids are doodling their way thru US History. Did you have a specific "Civics"/"Gov't" class? I dunno if we will anywhere between 7th thru 12th, but I've been trying to supplement my education by reading #### lot about the Constitution (not the Apolyton one, the US one) and the rights granted by it and blah blah, and other et cetera material about various governments. I dunno. Also this Demo game is a great place to see a society debate about its laws and vote, regardless of whether it affects real-world or not.

Really though, I'll be glad to lend my support to the UAD although Demo would be more convenient for the state of Apolyton. I'm saying here and now that I'm barbaric in my wish for this to be a quick easy game so we can get the PtW Demogame started. If we really were to revert to Despot (good luck) in this game it would extend the game a long amount of time, and time is something we dont have. (IIRC PtW comes out Nov 3, and I know we'll need some time to get used to it but hey we only got so much. I dunno. ) Of course however I wish not to be put on the government's "Hit-list" for supporting revolutionary activities, I'm just trying to hear both sides of every argument.

	25-10-2002 04:42									#41
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We should be proud of and glorify our accomplishments. Ask yourself "Where would we be if we had decided that we needed peace instead of following the path we have chosen". The answer is a small developed area between france and persia. I like how we have turned out and hope we continue spreading our enlightened view around the world. Yes they temporaily have the tech advantage but our culture is better and as seen by our victories, is sanction by his yellowness. I dream of living on a continent that is also a country called apolyton and know that with a little patience and forsight it can be so. But remember we expand to protect the huddle masses so that they can see the light that is apolyton. If some die, well that is a sacrifice I am willing to make. Perhaps we will also find primitive peoples on some foreign shore that may well desire, nay demand that we spread our enlightenment to them. It is a great burden being the light of the world, somebody has to do such a difficult job.
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