12-11-2002 07:23									#61
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I just started a game as Carthage... yuck to the early UU. I'll start something as militaristic, and see what I think.

	12-11-2002 07:28									#62
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OK, Celts again, just to check for things military.

BTW, does everyone realize that you can start researching on the first turn you've built your first town?

	12-11-2002 07:55									#63
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Yes, you lose 2 science if you don't pick something to research on your first turn.

	12-11-2002 08:07									#64
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combat DOESN'T seem so changed to me so far. The new medieval infantry unit ( btw perfectly fitted within the chain of units and upgrades ) seems to be slightly weakier than a Knight at offense ( both 4). I'm playing Spain right now, non-militaristic, and the promotion ratio is near the same as 1.29f games. Perhaps GL are even harder to produce than before, too soon to tell...perhaps 1 less / game so far. However cannon/artillery success ratio is a bit better ( before the AI builds Civil Defense in late game ). Have you heard the new artillery's sounds coded? cool.....

	12-11-2002 08:38									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky After losing a few Emperor level starts, I tucked my tail between my legs and started a game on Monarchy.

I was pretty close to that point after I got run over early (on Emperor) a couple of times but finally got a good start with the Ottomans: Sipahi ROCK! The Babs had everything full of fortified Musketeers but the Sipahi slice through them like a hot knife through butter. I hope to invade the other big continent before the Persians get Nationalism - the game shouldn't last long in that case.

After playing the Vikings I'm not totally convinced by the Berserks just yet. If you can't use the amphibious ability they are quite expensive for what they offer and since they can't pull back they will still take losses regularly.

	12-11-2002 09:30									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky After losing a few Emperor level starts, I tucked my tail between my legs and started a game on Monarchy.

I'm playing my 4th PTW game (2 tiny; 2 standard; all emperor). I haven't spent much time in the editor. I don't know if something obvious has changed with tech costs.

But something has changed. Could the AI have improved on terrain improvements? Build orders? Tech trading?

I don't know what it is, but an SP game is way more challenging. My emperor games feel much more like deity under 1.29f. I had gotten to the point where a peaceful emperor game was possible with all but the most painful of starts; no more -- I'm beginning to believe that early, aggressive warfare is a must at PTW emperor (as opposed to a good idea, but not a requirement). I haven't playd a monarch game yet, but I may soon. The AI in SP has so far either kicked my ass or put up a good challenge.

Thank you, Soren.

Catt

	12-11-2002 13:27									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW Yes, you lose 2 science if you don't pick something to research on your first turn.

Hang on there...
Are you saying that if I wait for the "What shall we research" popup, I'm losing out?

Do I need to manually hit F6 as soon as I found my town to avoid losing a turn of research?

	12-11-2002 16:25									#68
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Hang on there... Are you saying that if I wait for the "What shall we research" popup, I'm losing out? Do I need to manually hit F6 as soon as I found my town to avoid losing a turn of research?

Yes, kind of annoying but early on every turn counts.

	12-11-2002 20:13									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I just started a game as Carthage... yuck to the early UU. I'll start something as militaristic, and see what I think.

I don't like having an early UU either. And this one is expensive and prevents you from being able to make the cheaper spearmen.

However, if you have raging hordes of barbs you will be amazed by how many attacks these UU can defend. I never lost one to a barb and I had up to 20 horsemen attacking just two defenders. I ended up with a ton of elite units too.

	12-11-2002 21:31									#70
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yea like many of us like to do, build some early UUs and dont use them until way later when u want a golden age...attack a badly wounded unit and u have a good chance of winning even with outdated UU

	12-11-2002 22:48									#71
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Wow, having read through this, I will probably drop down to Monarch for my first few PtW attempts. The "minor tweaks" to the AI appear to have worked.

I noticed a couple of people mentioning a possible change to the promotion of units... is that true, Soren? If so, the Dark Side has been weakened.

-Arrian

	12-11-2002 23:54									#72
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I've not had much problem with the AI tech rate on Emperor, based on one game's experience. But, as always, I didn't try to compete until Universities were in place. By that time I was the big guy and had ToE in my pocket as well. The addition of stock exchanges downgrades the importance of Banks as a rush item in favor of completing the university network -- does everyone agree?

What I did notice, or imagine, is smarter AI diplomacy. Again, it's too early to generalize, but I liked it from a competitive viewpoint.

Arrian -- I would not bother to go back to Monarch. It's not that big a change IMO.

I did like the celtic UU despite its cost. Damn thing is a holy terror and just ripped apart neighbors without appreciable losses.

	13-11-2002 01:30									#73
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Hm. I don't know what's the difference between the difficulty levels exactly, but I fear it has to do with some more diplomatic and military challange, so I play always Deity and turn off the big boni for the ai.

But PTW is hard I must say. Never had this problem in CivIII but now my old strategy of ignoring Science for treasure and buying or stealing techs areN't as good as they should be. In later games they wanted very very much money for the develpoments. For example 11.000 Goldpieces only for one. Okay, I play a special mod with 10 rounds per development at least and more taxes so my nation of 15-20 cities gave me 1500 GP per round and perhaps the civs were influenced by that but when I got a new one, I tried to sell them to the civs but they never had any money. Okay, funny thing, that many civ gave me 100GP/turn, a couple of times later I had 2500/round. But there is a little difference between 11.000 and 100 for 20 turns. Not quite fair. Hm, they gave me all they had. The Civs must save money!

	13-11-2002 01:46									#74
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr Arrian -- I would not bother to go back to Monarch. It's not that big a change IMO.

I agree. Just be ready for a challenge, don't expect to buy workers for 30 gold, and assume that the AI will be more productive than you are used to.

I actually graduated up to Monarch at the same time I installed PtW and it sure is tough, but manageable.

I'm not getting many/any wonders, but I'm having fun.

	13-11-2002 02:36									#75
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I haven't completed a PTW game yet, only played a couple of ancient ages to warm up, and I must say that the game is a bit more difficult now. Arrian has to say bye bye to worker buying and the military tactic of the AI and especially of the barbarians has been improved. The other stuff like oscillating wars and extorting techs and cities for peace remained the same. I think there's no need to downgrade in difficulty level though.

What really surprised me is, that the AIs trade contacts more offensive. I often had leaders in my foreign screen, units of which I never had seen, and I also did not trade for this contact. Must be one of the AI, that sold the contact with me to other AIs. I had this not a single time in the original Civ3. I first thought, it was a bug.

Overall SP works a charm , but MP ... ... oh dear! The old "I hope they fix it in the patch" remains valid.

	13-11-2002 02:39									#76
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twilight , not wanting to be rude, but turning off bonus for deity and tossing in mods makes your game not relevant. It just has no baring on the normal game. It my be fun, it maybe any number of things, but it can not be compared to a std game. I can not use your experiences to draw any conclusions.

	13-11-2002 02:47									#77
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Sir Ralph you are correct it does not require any change to the difficulty levels. In the early part of the games I have played, it seem as if I am doing worst than normal, but I am not. I am not sure what the reason is. I suspect that is they are often using less units that in the past. All I know so far is I am able to to run over them and not face the massive counts of troops that I had been used to. It is too soon to say for sure as it could just be getting a slightly better start than normal. I do not think that is it as they are nothing like some I have seen. Maybe I am playing smarter, nay that can;t be it, if anything I am more likely to be play less well.

	15-11-2002 06:47									#78
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I don't know if this has been discussed before, but the barbarians are a much bigger factor in PTW than they were before. They used to head right for the cities; now they pillage roads, seek out horse/iron tiles, and lurk much more effectively around the outskirts of cities. Still manageable, ultimately, but I find I need more military more evenly dispersed in my territory -- an effort that definitely diverts key energy during those critical early turns where every shield and every gold piece counts so heavily.

	15-11-2002 08:06									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron I don't know if this has been discussed before, but the barbarians are a much bigger factor in PTW than they were before. They used to head right for the cities; now they pillage roads, seek out horse/iron tiles, and lurk much more effectively around the outskirts of cities. Still manageable, ultimately, but I find I need more military more evenly dispersed in my territory -- an effort that definitely diverts key energy during those critical early turns where every shield and every gold piece counts so heavily.

PtW 1.04f: barbs are smarter, AI is smarter. A bit more aggressive, and also more eager to be at war with multiple ennemies at the same time - you should see the incredible late Industrial world war they're ALL involved into in my actual game - BUT, it's easier I think ( so far ) to make peace ( 5- turns war and generally they accept peace and you can even extort tech/city after a 8-10-turn war, a bit tuned down I think). I like it. And barbs units act more like civ units, that's clever

	15-11-2002 08:29									#80
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MM, any screenshots of the Industrial war worth posting?

	15-11-2002 19:04									#81
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This is only anecdotal, but so far, the best answer I've seen to the "smarter" barbarians is to put out a settler with a spearman escort. The barbarians come a runnin'. Have a few horsemen or something else lurking nearby, and you don't really need to even risk letting the barbs attack your spearman.

	15-11-2002 20:48									#82
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dac, I've noticed the same thing. But I'm playing Carthage so with the heavy-duty mercs I can just let them attack. They are different/smarter in their behavior, but they're still barbarians and not likely to win many battles.

	16-11-2002 04:24									#83
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euh, worth posting, no , but you can easily imagine all the spaghetti lines in F4 screen: the 9 survival civs ( 15+me at the beginning ) have each an average of 4 enemies, so I'm not really surprised to see such an entangled world war since how much regularly the AI makes MPP in PtW( and I was partly responsible when making a military alliance 10 turns before, as soon as my iroquois ally has convinced the aztecs to attack our enemy the carthaginians, then a strong domino effect I have never saw before in vanilla Civ III...). 15 turns later, I was the only one to be at peace, reswitched to democracy thus having a leading edge for the space race.

	16-11-2002 04:47									#84
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Speaking of F4 spaghetti, if I could wish for one thing to be in a patch, it would be for a better diplomacy screen for when you have more than 8 civs in a game.

Patch an F4 screen into PtW that can handle the 32 civs that the game itself will allow and I'd call PtW "ultimate" instead of just "great".

Another thing I've noticed:
Barbarians not only running away from stronger units, but going across rivers, onto hills or mountains, and into the forest or jungle for a tactical advantage - not merely running away, but repositioning before attacking my exploratory warrior.

Very nice, IMO.