14-11-2002 09:46									#31
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Tough choice. As former CP I will for a change not post who I am voting for. Both have done an excelent job in what they have worked on. Each has a different style, and different objectives from what I have seen. I urge all of our citizens to read & think carefully before they vote here.

GK

	14-11-2002 09:49									#32
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Are you saying pointing out differences is "negative campaigning"?

There was nothing negative in what I posted, except for the latter part when I was defending myself from accusations, but certainly not the part you quoted.

There is nothing wrong with E_T's approach, in fact if either of our two approaches is wrong it is mine. I would be running under the NewCon with an OldCon administration while E_T would actually be following the NewCon to the letter.

Most of the negativity I've seen displayed is over changes in the approach. Several people grew accustomed to GodKing's style and when E_T displayed a markedly different style (which he had every right to under the NewCon) they were not happy with it. I am simply giving them the opportunity to attempt to restore the old style.

The NewCon specifically gives the DM all of the powers and veto rights my opponent spoke of and SUGGESTS he consider appointing deputies but by no means requires it.

	14-11-2002 17:18									#33
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Oh, I would require them, this job is TOO BIG for just one person to handle by himself! One of the things that I have worried about is the PTW drain. Even though we still have a lot of people who are voting here in the last several days, that does not mean that they would want to do some of these jobs (for either canidate).

E_T

	14-11-2002 17:23									#34
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Oh, I would require them, this job is TOO BIG for just one person to handle by himself! One of the things that I have worried about is the PTW drain. Even though we still have a lot of people who are voting here in the last several days, that does not mean that they would want to do some of these jobs (for either canidate). E_T

I suppose that's ironic... the game becoming less democratic (PTW brain drain) just as we're switching to democracy

	14-11-2002 17:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by nz_upy This is the Key Issue here E_T sees the position as one almost equal to the President from what I gather in his posts. And the NewCon definitely left it to be interpreted that way.

Yes, it is a powerful position, but the New Con set it up that way. As for being almost like the Prez, that's not quite true. With the addition powers that the new con has bestowed, to each of the ministers, comes a lot of responsability to the Senate. We are still here by their whim. The budget for rushes will be by their whim. With the NewCon, it's almoist an entirely new game, except we aren't starting in 4000AB.

quote: I, having grown used to the OldCon, still view it as a supportive position whose primary goals are to do what the President directs and simply achieve his goals and providing input into the direction. Either is a perfectly rational way to view it under the NewCon, it simply comes down to whether you want a Domestic Minister who is fulfilling their vision for Apolytonia, or one who plans to fulfill a more collective vision."

Why can't they be one and the same, just different in the implementation? My vision is for it to be a Great Nation, Isn't that what everybody wants? I really haven't heard anyone say that they want to lose or that they don't want to become independant from the A.I.

It's how we do these things that is in the details of the interpitation of a collective dream. That should not be confused with the dream it's self.

quote: Does this border on anything?

Meglamenia, but how can you be that to a bunch of electronic people in a virtual world? Feed them false information to sway their decision to your own is one, but wait, I've always made every effort to properly info the population, because I felt they needed to know things.

So, how do you do it, I'd like to know, so I can watch out for it in someone else.

E_T

	14-11-2002 17:47									#36
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quote: Originally posted by E_T My vision is for it to be a Great Nation, Isn't that what everybody wants? I really haven't heard anyone say that they want to lose or that they don't want to become independant from the A.I.

[tongue-in-cheek]

Well, there WAS that United Apolytonian Despots organization that Unorthodox founded

And then there's that whole issue with 2 or 3 of the hardline Hawks advocating that we declare war on 4 different civs at once to make things a "challenge"...

I'd say your assumption may not be as solid as you thought

[/tongue-in-cheek]

	14-11-2002 18:00									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos [tongue-in-cheek] Well, there WAS that United Apolytonian Despots organization that Unorthodox founded And then there's that whole issue with 2 or 3 of the hardline Hawks advocating that we declare war on 4 different civs at once to make things a "challenge"... I'd say your assumption may not be as solid as you thought [/tongue-in-cheek]

Arnelos, you get what I mean, sheesh.....

E_T

	14-11-2002 18:03									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos [tongue-in-cheek] Well, there WAS that United Apolytonian Despots organization that Unorthodox founded And then there's that whole issue with 2 or 3 of the hardline Hawks advocating that we declare war on 4 different civs at once to make things a "challenge"... I'd say your assumption may not be as solid as you thought [/tongue-in-cheek]

Hey, if that was the wishes of the nation, then I would follow it. I wouldn't be the first penguin in to the sea, but about 10th back. Of Course, THAT might be when I would use a Veto or E.O.

E_T

	14-11-2002 22:08									#39
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[EDIT]

Wrong day

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 15-11-2002 at 01:52

	14-11-2002 22:22									#40
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For the record I said "3+", and I'm not a hawk

	14-11-2002 22:27									#41
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hi ,

its 50-50 now , what happens if it stays that way , ......?

have a nice day

	14-11-2002 23:21									#42
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If it's a tie maybe we can work out a deal for a joint Ministry.

Woohoo! A Coalition office! (I doubt it will be an absolute tie as we still have over a day left, what does the NewCon say about ties?)

quote: Originally posted by Togas Article VII. Elections 6 If no candidate for office receives more than 50% of the vote, there shall be a run-off election held from the 15th to the 18th. (a) The Court shall create a run-off poll with the two candidates who received the most votes. 7 Ties shall be resolved by the Court in any manner of their choosing.

	14-11-2002 23:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb If it's a tie maybe we can work out a deal for a joint Ministry. Woohoo! A Coalition office! (I doubt it will be an absolute tie as we still have over a day left, what does the NewCon say about ties?)

hi ,

hmm , a coalition office might be something , ........

have a nice day

	14-11-2002 23:48									#44
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I think the point of the new consitution Domestic Minister is to keep the old City Planning and old Public Works on the same page.

	15-11-2002 01:50									#45
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I think if neither get over 50% we have a runoff. So if its a tie get ready to do this all over again.
Aggie

	15-11-2002 02:03									#46
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Can anyone think of closer race in Apolytonia's history?

	15-11-2002 02:27									#47
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Well Trip vs. Ninot for President in Term 2 was at nearly 50/50 all the way up to nearly 100 votes :-P

Though they also believed in forming a coalition government which was shot down by the people.

I think a coalition government is a bad idea, especially in this case as you two have completely different views on how you want to run things. Neither is neccesarily bad, but this could cause many problems and much frustration in getting things done.

	15-11-2002 02:37									#48
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If neither gets over 50%, we have a runoff. To be honest, even as a member of the ConCon I can't honestly say what happens if they tie again -- I'd have to check (it seemed like such a remote possibility at the time of writing ). It's probably presidental nomination, but I don't think anyone seriously considered it as a possibility .

-- adaMada

EDIT: Also, let me remind all the canidates that the remaining twenty four hours means that there will probably be another voter or two, so I suggest that they keep campeigning. I myself haven't voted in an election or two yet -- so more votes may come .

	15-11-2002 02:43									#49
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Well Trip vs. Ninot for President in Term 2 was at nearly 50/50 all the way up to nearly 100 votes :-P Though they also believed in forming a coalition government which was shot down by the people. I think a coalition government is a bad idea, especially in this case as you two have completely different views on how you want to run things. Neither is neccesarily bad, but this could cause many problems and much frustration in getting things done.

I was thinking splitting it down the middle, we would each get half of the cities and workers and race to see who could accomplish the most in one term's time.

Kind of an Eastern, and Western Empire situation. One would get the Palace and the other would get the Forbidden Palace.

It is an option:

quote: Originally posted by Togas Article VII. Elections 6 If no candidate for office receives more than 50% of the vote, there shall be a run-off election held from the 15th to the 18th. (a) The Court shall create a run-off poll with the two candidates who received the most votes. 7 Ties shall be resolved by the Court in any manner of their choosing.

According to the NewCon there is NO runoff because there were already only two options. The only time there is a runoff is if there were more than two options and the top two would be in the runoff.

In the case of a tie the issue is to be "resolved by the court" so they could split it down the middle.

	15-11-2002 03:01									#50
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Hmmm... Interesting excerpt. I think part seven was probably intended to deal with a tie after a runoff, but I'd have to talk to the other ConCon members to be sure -- I don't remember it being explicitly discussed (Togas, who authored the majority of the document, could probably shed more light into it than I could). Having said that, the matter would probably be in the hands of the court anyway, as we have potentially conflicting sections. Personally? I'd do a runoff before turning to the courts. You'll note that NewCon doesn't say that there must be three canidates or more for a runoff; just if neither gets more than 50% of the vote.

quote: I was thinking splitting it down the middle, we would each get half of the cities and workers and race to see who could accomplish the most in one term's time. Kind of an Eastern, and Western Empire situation. One would get the Palace and the other would get the Forbidden Palace.

That could be very cool -- and could be a nightmare. Would probably be quite hard on the President, and I shutter to think about the politiking that the SMC/FAM might wind up having to go through . Though I see some very cool potential, I'd probably be against any such proposal, since I see a good deal of trouble it could cause, especially considering the very differnet styles of the people involved. (If me and Arnelos were to tie (as unlikely as it may be), I might feel differently, as we are very similar canidates (with similar playing styles) who probably could split the workload and produce similar results. Even in this scenerio, however, it would set a bad precedent...).

-- adaMada

	15-11-2002 03:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada Hmmm... Interesting excerpt. I think part seven was probably intended to deal with a tie after a runoff, but I'd have to talk to the other ConCon members to be sure -- I don't remember it being explicitly discussed (Togas, who authored the majority of the document, could probably shed more light into it than I could). Having said that, the matter would probably be in the hands of the court anyway, as we have potentially conflicting sections. Personally? I'd do a runoff before turning to the courts. You'll note that NewCon doesn't say that there must be three canidates or more for a runoff; just if neither gets more than 50% of the vote.

It wouldn't be a "runoff" it would be a repoll because you would have THE EXACT SAME election with the EXACT SAME OPTIONS. A runoff occurs when you drop the superfluous choices and only go with the more popular ones.

quote: Originally posted by adaMada That could be very cool -- and could be a nightmare. Would probably be quite hard on the President, and I shutter to think about the politiking that the SMC/FAM might wind up having to go through . Though I see some very cool potential, I'd probably be against any such proposal, since I see a good deal of trouble it could cause, especially considering the very differnet styles of the people involved. (If me and Arnelos were to tie (as unlikely as it may be), I might feel differently, as we are very similar canidates (with similar playing styles) who probably could split the workload and produce similar results. Even in this scenerio, however, it would set a bad precedent...).

Nightmare, smitemare, the game's over, we won. This would spice up the game abit and allow for more roleplay and might stave off some of the Exodus to the PTW Demo Game for a while.

Heck, I'm starting to like this idea so much that if I win I'd be interested in seeing if E_T would like to take a chunk and run with it. With my guarantee that I will make absolutely NO CHANGES to any of his orders.

	15-11-2002 04:25									#52
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Oh my word! I just checked and at the time of this post more people have voted in the Domestic Minister Election (51) than the President Election (50)!

	15-11-2002 05:34									#53
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada EDIT: Also, let me remind all the canidates that the remaining twenty four hours means that there will probably be another voter or two, so I suggest that they keep campeigning. I myself haven't voted in an election or two yet -- so more votes may come .

Unfortunately, I can't do anymore Campaining because of getting the orders ready for tomorrow. I just now have gotten back from a preliminary job interview and will work on them until I'm done.

Basically, vote for the person whom you think will do the best job under the NewCon. Who you think will work with the senate the best, etc.....

I've said most of what I've planned to say. If anyone has a question, I'll be happy to answer them within a fairly reasonable time period, as I'll be checking this from time to time.

E_T

	15-11-2002 08:43									#54
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I like the idea of both of ya'll doing half the cities, that would be hillarious. Of course one would be the official domestic, that doesn't prevent one from designating the other" the deputy in charge of these cities". Do we divide on pop or number of cites. Imagine if we did this for FAM too, luckily adamada and Arnelos are pretty close otherwise our foreign policy could be pretty schitzofreic. I like the idea so much let me official endorse, it time to have some fun with this game.
Aggie

	15-11-2002 09:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie I like the idea of both of ya'll doing half the cities, that would be hillarious. Of course one would be the official domestic, that doesn't prevent one from designating the other" the deputy in charge of these cities". Do we divide on pop or number of cites. Imagine if we did this for FAM too, luckily adamada and Arnelos are pretty close otherwise our foreign policy could be pretty schitzofreic. I like the idea so much let me official endorse, it time to have some fun with this game. Aggie

I think it would work better if they were divided into chunks. Say the Western Empire had Macross City as its capitol and the Eastern Empire had Contaginon as its capitol. Although both should be renamed something suitable maybe naming the two cites "EASTERN EMPIRE" and "WESTERN EMPIRE" in all caps?

We could call it something on the lines of the "Age of the two Empires."

	15-11-2002 09:17									#56
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Too bad you couldn't have two different armies fight one another, i.e. civil war, THAT might be interesting.

E_T

	15-11-2002 09:20									#57
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Good idea, this is a good opportunity to show how different strategies work, which was part of the reason for this game. Additionally incase anyone thinks we are damaging the game, I submit that this will actually make our empire stronger and better. Competition is good. In reference to ET statement above, nobody can bribe thud to pillage the other's improvements. Not that you all would but the temptation would be present.
Aggie

	15-11-2002 09:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Too bad you couldn't have two different armies fight one another, i.e. civil war, THAT might be interesting. E_T

CivFanatics had a civil war in their first DemoGame after their endgame got boring. Don't know whether anything happened in-game or if it was all in the forum, though. Besides, they were a little farther along than we were (they had a choice between cultural and spaceship victory) and I assume they had a comfortable tech lead.

Also, CFC has a system where each citizen can govern a city, IIRC. This lends itself much better to the start of a dramatic civil war, with everyone scrambling to choose sides.

	15-11-2002 09:29									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Imagine if we did this for FAM too, luckily adamada and Arnelos are pretty close otherwise our foreign policy could be pretty schitzofreic. I like the idea so much let me official endorse, it time to have some fun with this game. Aggie

. That could have some really funny results.

"And in International News Today, Apolytonia signed a mutual protection pact with Greece while also declaring war on it. Apolytonian President Aggie citied a lack of communication between Apolytonia's two foreign ministers, and stated that 'We will honor our treaty obligations while we continue to destroy them'".

In all seriousness, though, the plan Ghengis is proposing could be lots of fun, if Aggie were willing to put up with the difficulties it would create and the other ministers willing to play along. Of course, it would make things much less serious than the game is now, but we're nearly guarenteed a win so we might as well get a bit of extra fun in there .

-- adaMada

	15-11-2002 09:30									#60
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I will support the split of the empire. BUT after the Palace has been relocated to ensure a more even spread of cities.