17-12-2002 02:01									#61
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'azz... Again that **************** problem...

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	17-12-2002 02:04									#62
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Ok now goes better...

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	17-12-2002 02:22									#63
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Who wrote the book? It seems to me like a short version of my main source, Robert H. Barlow's "The Extent of the Culhua-Mexica Empire". By the way, a good link about this:

Mexica Empire Project

	17-12-2002 02:29									#64
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Jacques Soustelle, The Aztecs.

The book you mentioned is amongst the sources. Nevermind, then.

	17-12-2002 04:34									#65
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About Tamoanchan: Isn't it said that Tamoanchan lies at Cihuatlampa (in the west, just to confuse us all three even more). At least Alcina Franch claims this...


edit: forgot the m in cihuatlampa

	17-12-2002 05:00									#66
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Well, it does sound like a Huaxtec name. Compare:
Tamuin, Tanlajas, Tampaon, Tancolol, Tancahuitz. In fact, I have heard that Tamoanchan was the Huaxtec name for the region around modern Ciudad Valles...

	17-12-2002 19:06									#67
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Or maybe it's just the place where our our "souls" are born...

	17-12-2002 21:19									#68
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Actually, you are probably onto something. Some references to Tamoanchán may be geographical and others mythological, as happens with Chicomoztoc or Aztlán. The Nahuas had this annoying habit of naming goegraphical places after mythological ones.

Another example is Mictlan (now Mitla) in Oaxaca. You don't have to be dead to visit.

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	17-12-2002 22:08									#69
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Yes, this seems to be a general specific of all mesoamerican cultures. The journey to the Quiché-Mayan underworld Xibalba in the Popol Vuh is good mapable on the Yucatec landscape. Mythology and real geography merge into one. One could argue that Teotihuacán and Tamoanchàn are the same places too, for both are considered to be the original places, where the Gods come from.

	17-12-2002 23:16									#70
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Very true. In fact, I recently visited an exhibit in the national museum of anthropology in Mexico about the Huicholes. (It is a wonderful museum - do you know it?)
They live in a world with no conflict of geographical and mythological. A physical rock in the sea near San Blas is the dwelling place of the sea goddess, the desert around Real de 14 is Wirikuta, the paradise on earth.
Which brings us back to where we started. Tamoanchán must be a physical place.
I don't know about Teotihuacán. Somehow I associate Tamoanchán with water and Quetzalcóatl (my Tamoanchán mental file is rusty), which is why I lean towards the Huaxtec region.

	18-12-2002 01:10									#71
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Tamoanchán like Xochatlalpan is associated with the cosmological "life tree. As Xochatlalpan is regularly identified as identical to Tlalocan, we could also say it's to the south.
It's got something to do with Quetzalcóatl but I'm not sure about the exact story. But it would be weird in the mesoamerican cosmos if the place from where the Gods originated were in the east or north.

	18-12-2002 01:11									#72
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And no, I don't know the museum. (Believe it or not, I never physically stayed in Mexico.)

	18-12-2002 01:31									#73
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Indipendent enclaves into Mexica empire.

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	18-12-2002 01:46									#74
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Great Map, Prom. Especially helpful with northern Tototepec, which I had not been able to find.
1. The Tlaxcallans will be represented by a civ of their own. When the Spaniards arrive, this civ will have a little boost... dont' want to give away all the surprises.
2. Metztitlan and the northern Tototepec will be one and the same, and owned by the Otomí civ, which will also hold the Matlalzinca (Toluca) valley at the beginning).
3. Southern Tototepec will be easy pickings for the Mixtecos initially. When northern Mixtec cities fall, they will be strengthened in this part of the map.

The Yopitzincas will be all barbarians... With a nasty defense, all-as-road move, and mountainous territory with fortresses.

	18-12-2002 01:52									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Tamoanchán like Xochatlalpan is associated with the cosmological "life tree. As Xochatlalpan is regularly identified as identical to Tlalocan, we could also say it's to the south. It's got something to do with Quetzalcóatl but I'm not sure about the exact story.

Found it! Bernardino de Sahagún (the first civilized Spaniard in Mexico ) says that Quetzalcoatl led the Huaxtecs, who came from the ocean. They landed in the mouths of the Pánuco and settled in Tamoanchan.
Ciudad Valles is just inland of the Pánuco, and looks like paradise to me:

	18-12-2002 02:22									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III But it would be weird in the mesoamerican cosmos if the place from where the Gods originated were in the east or north.

In terms of the cosmology, maybe. But all the Chichimec tribes came from the north, on one hand.

On the other hand, it may not be too weird to say that "civilization" came from the east. Think about this scenario: The olmec culture lived on in mayan culture. Mayans took it to Yucatan. From there, they could have crossed the Gulf and ended in the Huaxtec region. Chichimec tribes on the way to the central valleys of Mexico could have passed through and picked up all the Quetzalcóatl and "civilization" stuff. (The utoaztecan linguistic family extends pretty far north, thus the chichimecs could have come from further north than is believed).

By the way, here is what they are calling the "missing link" between the Olmecs and Mayans: a frieze from Calakmul dated 400 B.C. just discovered.

	18-12-2002 05:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by El Leon In terms of the cosmology, maybe. But all the Chichimec tribes came from the north, on one hand.

True, but not all mythological places are the original places of Chichimec tribes. Like Teotihuacán for example

quote: On the other hand, it may not be too weird to say that "civilization" came from the east. Think about this scenario: The olmec culture lived on in mayan culture. Mayans took it to Yucatan. From there, they could have crossed the Gulf and ended in the Huaxtec region. Chichimec tribes on the way to the central valleys of Mexico could have passed through and picked up all the Quetzalcóatl and "civilization" stuff. (The utoaztecan linguistic family extends pretty far north, thus the chichimecs could have come from further north than is believed).

Well, quite a bit of the Mexican culture will probably have come from the east (they paid it back ) Yet the Quetzalcoatl stories, at least if we're talking about Topiltzin Ce Acatl, are definitely related to the Toltecs and Tula itself. I would think it were weird if the Chichimecs had passed through the eastern mesoamerica though, too little direct influence, or so it seems. It would be funny though if Historians would be on a complete wrong way with the "toltecized Mayans" of Chichén Itzá. Imagine that tribes first got there, invented the typical architectural forms AND THEN went to Tula... Pure brainstorming, sorry.


Actually I do believe that the "Uto-Aztecs" (what a stupid denomination...) migrated from what is nowadays USA once, the question is only how long before the arrival in central Mexico had they been dwelling there?

quote: By the way, here is what they are calling the "missing link" between the Olmecs and Mayans: a frieze from Calakmul dated 400 B.C. just discovered.

Yeah, I've heard about it. Great to see a picture

BTW. do you have the passage in Sahagún about Tamoanchán? Which edition do you own?

	19-12-2002 22:43									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III True, but not all mythological places are the original places of Chichimec tribes. Like Teotihuacán for example

Aggravated by the cultural assimilation of features of other groups. Like the case of the three Tezcatlipocas - in the end, the only "Aztec" one is Huitzilopochtli. Xipe Totec they got from the Yopitzincas and Tezcatlipoca from the Toltecs.

quote: Well, quite a bit of the Mexican culture will probably have come from the east (they paid it back ) Yet the Quetzalcoatl stories, at least if we're talking about Topiltzin Ce Acatl, are definitely related to the Toltecs and Tula itself. I would think it were weird if the Chichimecs had passed through the eastern mesoamerica though, too little direct influence, or so it seems. It would be funny though if Historians would be on a complete wrong way with the "toltecized Mayans" of Chichén Itzá. Imagine that tribes first got there, invented the typical architectural forms AND THEN went to Tula... Pure brainstorming, sorry.

The frieze's importance may be precisely that it advances the "mayanized toltecs" hypothesis. Ce Acatl Topiltzin, Quetzalcóatl of the Huaxtecs (the oldest one, apparently), and the leader of the Cholulan settlement are probably all different people. But the main priest of a god was named after the god, if I recall correctly, and was often identified. So they are all the same archetypal figure (an Apollo of sorts, as much as i hate interprestaions of mesoamerica based on european models). BTW, along with the frieze they discovered a massive vault... from 400 BC!

quote: Actually I do believe that the "Uto-Aztecs" (what a stupid denomination...) migrated from what is nowadays USA once, the question is only how long before the arrival in central Mexico had they been dwelling there?

??? They may have migrated all from northwestern Mexico - I'm only saying it's a possibility.

quote: BTW. do you have the passage in Sahagún about Tamoanchán? Which edition do you own?

Don't own it. I found the reference in some notes of mine from when I was doing research on the "atlantean" archetype in Mexico for a documentary. ((Which never got of the ground - producers )
Of course, Quetzalcóatl was the center of the whole thing.
I believe the reference is in the chapter where he discusses the Huaxtecs. First he discusses the ocean crossing and disembarking and several parapgraphs ahead he mentions Quetzalcóatl and Tamoanchan, if I recall correctly. I'll try to find the reference in the library.

	25-12-2002 06:58									#79
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Did something stange happen and all the most recent posts get deleted? Oh well. It was a nice discussion.

Este thread se muda:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=72005

EDIT - Nope, they're there. Apolyton playing with my head once more.

Last edited by El León on 25-12-2002 at 07:04