16-11-2002 04:08									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, I don't think it is. But as far as the election goes, anyone who says Gore won is as bad as Ashcroft as far as ignoring the constitution. News flash: The president, according to the constitution, is not elected by popular vote. To say that the current president is not really the president is as blatant a desecration of the constitution as is the obstruction of civil liberties.

I didn't even vote for Bush.

	16-11-2002 04:13									#32
	Support Apolyton

America will probably get to be more of a conservative authoritarian country... or at least one more like Mussolini's Italy.

A Corporate Republic would be a good term since "Republic" is not necessarily a democracy. But I think that the American corporations and the government will blur even further and one way or another, American citizens will be subject to a terrestrial force far beyond their control.

	16-11-2002 04:35									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I think corporations have far less influence on the US government today than 100 years ago, when Robber Barons were running the show.

	16-11-2002 05:10									#34
	Get a bigger avatar today!

nah, the whole of the western world is being increasingly dominated by corparatism, especially as the flow of privatisation increases. I mean, in a country where every thing is privatised, what is the point of a govt?

	16-11-2002 05:33									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The US is closer to 1900 levels of wealth inequality than 1960's levels.

NO, the US isn't becoming a totalitarian state anymore than most modern democratic states. After al, england has as restrictive laws as the US in some respects, and yet I don't see anyone screaming about the English dictatorship.

Also, Dino and company: you guys can be so pathetic sometimes. Tass posts a poll that is not written in a provocative manner, yet all you guys do is react in a knee-jerck jingo fashion. Give it up! Had he posted a clearly provocative, slanted poll, perhaps, but not this one.

	16-11-2002 05:48									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I thought the US was 50 totalitarian states.

	16-11-2002 05:51									#37
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan If it is going to be part of a greater deal, most danish are ready to give the Faroe islands away for free. Anybody interessted?

You should give them back to Norway. And Greenland as well please.

	16-11-2002 07:58									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler The trend is clear. If Americans feel their security is threatened, they will jettison their freedoms faster than a sinking ship will jettison ballast.

Yea I know. We shouldn't have the right to get rid of our freedoms like that. I want to move to a country where people aren't allowed to choose whether they can turn their freedoms over in exchange for safety.

	16-11-2002 09:00									#39
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And take a moment to read chegitz's No-Fly thread.

You find your name on the No-Fly List. There's no way to find out why you're on the list. And there's no way to get off the list.

	16-11-2002 09:22									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some of you guys need to really figure out what a totalitarian state really is. America is about as far from a totalitarian state as you can get, along with England, Australia, Canada and other Anglophone states.

	16-11-2002 16:55									#41
	Support Apolyton

quote: Le Pen's party was the rightful winner of your last election. It's only been a horrible conspiracy by Chirac that has kept him from claiming his rightful post. It's time for another revolution to restore democracy in your country!

DinoDoc, you're pathetic. You talk bull.shits like Fez. Get more informations about what happened before you dare talk of that to me.

	16-11-2002 20:22									#42
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 If they were threatening to take civil liberties away, yep. Definately.

And what exactly would those "Liberties" be that are "threatened"?

Keep in mind, your saying parts of the Constituiton are being threatened, what parts? (Civil liberties are defined in the US bill of rights, which is part of the US Constitution)

	16-11-2002 21:16									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan If it is going to be part of a greater deal, most danish are ready to give the Faroe islands away for free. Anybody interessted?

Iceland should get Greenland and North America afterall
We found it 500 years before Columbus

and Norway should get Faroe islands and Denmark get a big part of England and Scotland and Ireland

Then things are getting as they should be!!!

	16-11-2002 22:43									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The farthest one could be from a totalitarian state is the Liberterian utopia various posters constantly praise in these boards.

I agree that the US isn't going to become a totalitarian state, but we do share various things is common, just as any political party shares things in common. Thats just the nature of being a modern state, which both our current democracy and Totalitarian states are. You can't classify two things in a single category without them sharing various key characteristics.

As for your question Chris:

Well, the right of habeas Corpus, and a fair and free trial for American citizens is threatened by the new law that states that the Government can, without any judicial oversight ability, classify an American citizen as an ilegal combatant thus denying them not only constitutional guarantees but also Geneva convention guarantees. Then there was that issue brought up by Che of denying some peole the right to move about freely because of political statements they had made. Then there is the fact that as part fo the patriot act, the burden of proof authorities had to meet to get searches approved by the copurts has been lowered.

So, thats the 1st, 4th, and 6th ammendments that are under some form of 'threat'.

	17-11-2002 03:26									#45
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 And what exactly would those "Liberties" be that are "threatened"? Keep in mind, your saying parts of the Constituiton are being threatened, what parts? (Civil liberties are defined in the US bill of rights, which is part of the US Constitution)

Off the top of my head:

Freedom of speech, petition and assemble, as peace actitivist and Green Party members are placed on the No-Fly List. (Also see Asher's recent threat about being afraid to post here anymore because of potential future retaliation from the government.)

Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures, as the govenment increases its routine spying on everyday citizents.

Freedom to confront your accusers, as the Administration considers whether it should try American citizens before military tribunals.

I'm sure there's more.

P.S. To all those screaming that we are not living in a totalitarian society, I agree. All I and others have said is that we are moving in that direction.

	17-11-2002 03:34									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak DinoDoc, you're pathetic. You talk bull.shits like Fez. Get more informations about what happened before you dare talk of that to me.

Anyone besides me see the problem with this? (bolding mine)

Woohoo! Let's hear it for people who complain about the outcome of the 2000 election without even glancing at the U.S. Constitution!

	17-11-2002 03:50									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler (Also see Asher's recent threat about being afraid to post here anymore because of potential future retaliation from the government.)

Check the user name again.

	17-11-2002 06:31									#48
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak DinoDoc, you're pathetic. You talk bull.shits like Fez. Get more informations about what happened before you dare talk of that to me.

Well, you started bullsh1tting first. He only responded to your ridiculous nonsense in the same way.

	17-11-2002 06:34									#49
	Support Apolyton

I agree that corporations have more influence on the politics today than during 1960s, but they are no where near the power they enjoyed between the latter quarter of the 19th century and the first quarter of the 20th century.

	17-11-2002 07:57									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Woohoo! Let's hear it for people who complain about the outcome of the 2000 election without even glancing at the U.S. Constitution!

Amen.

	17-11-2002 10:32									#51
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What was it that they say about civilization?

"Mankind is only three meals away from anarchy".

Everything's relative. In America, you live in the knowledge that your rights protect you from being gunned down in the streets, but you also live knowing that the legal system can be every bit as arbitrary and crushing as a despot - a mere word or action or example of professional incompetence can get your sorry butt sued, screwed, and tattooed.

In China, you live knowing that the media are state controlled, that the cities are the best places to earn money, and that (in all probability) your relatives don't live there, so you are economically bound to send back money to them while you make it. You probably care far less about highfalutin politics than you do about the state of your paychecks and company.

And in Britain you don't care about anything except football and beer, but any infringement on those is cause for a fight.

	17-11-2002 10:59									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

It's not a totaltarian state. If it were, we wouldn't be free to choose our leaders. But we can and do let all sorts of people campaign for office, and if we had wanted too in 2000 we could have elected Nader.

WRT to claiming Bush stole the 2000 election, even if Gore had gotten the recount he wanted Bush still would have won.

	17-11-2002 11:02									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's totalitarian.

	17-11-2002 11:25									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Yea I know. We shouldn't have the right to get rid of our freedoms like that. I want to move to a country where people aren't allowed to choose whether they can turn their freedoms over in exchange for safety.

Wait, isn't the right to give up freedoms a freedom in and of itself?

	17-11-2002 12:35									#55
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by CapitanGarlic quote: originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Yea I know. We shouldn't have the right to get rid of our freedoms like that. I want to move to a country where people aren't allowed to choose whether they can turn their freedoms over in exchange for safety. Wait, isn't the right to give up freedoms a freedom in and of itself?

That was one of the points made in my post.

	18-11-2002 21:08									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, the right of habeas Corpus, and a fair and free trial for American citizens is threatened by the new law that states that the Government can, without any judicial oversight ability, classify an American citizen as an ilegal combatant thus denying them not only constitutional guarantees but also Geneva convention guarantees.

I see this often, but a writ of Habeous corpus applies AFTER you have been imprisoned:
" Prisoners often seek release by filing a petition for a writ of habeas corpus. A writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate to a prison official ordering that an inmate be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he should be released from custody. A habeas corpus petition is a petition filed with a court by a person who objects to his own or another's detention or imprisonment. The petition must show that the court ordering the detention or imprisonment made a legal or factual error. Habeas corpus petitions are usually filed by persons serving prison sentences. "
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/h001.htm
Where exactly has this been threatened?
I hear you say it's being done, but where, and to whom?

quote: Then there was that issue brought up by Che of denying some peole the right to move about freely because of political statements they had made. Then there is the fact that as part fo the patriot act, the burden of proof authorities had to meet to get searches approved by the copurts has been lowered.

Isn't this covered under the sedition act of 1798?
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/sedact.html
That is nothing new, nor is it attributed to the Bush administration.

quote: So, thats the 1st, 4th, and 6th ammendments that are under some form of 'threat'.

Article [I.]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
No proposal given yet contridicts this, so it can't be the first amendment, let's try the forth:
Article [IV.]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
You will notice the word in bold, unreasonable, which the federal government determines, so it can't be article 4, let's look at #6:
Article [VI.]
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Again, no conflict, as the crime comitted is against the federal government, so they are the "district" mentioned, nor are military tribunals inconsistant with this amendment, only the rules of evidence are different, and nowhere is that mentioned in the amendment, so we see that your examples are not validated by the laws of the United States.
Here are the amendments, if anyone would care to look at them:
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

I'm affraid your argument is not accurate, so I'll ask again, what "civil liberties" are threatened?

	18-11-2002 21:17									#57
	Can I have a link? I don't remember that thread. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler (Also see Asher's recent threat about being afraid to post here anymore because of potential future retaliation from the government.)

	18-11-2002 21:19									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Jesus Christ Chris, you really are pathetic...

Habeas Corpus is all but dead; children have God forced upon them in school; Bush is probably going to get some voucher program for private schools passed (which is a backdoor for subsidizing religious schools)...

A perfect example for the lack of Habeas Corpus is the recent protests in Chicago. People were detained by police during the protests for 72 hours and then released. They were not charged with any crime. They were not arrested. So go stop with your quoting of the constitution; wake the f**k up... American big business controls this country; Republicans and Democrats alike are their puppets.


But then again, when you are an ignorant WASP, you probably don't see how our civil liberties are all but non-existent.

	18-11-2002 21:22									#59
	Remove this text

This is the better venue to troll Chris in Sava: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forum...p?s=&forumid=18

	18-11-2002 21:29									#60
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Any specific thread?

I would, but I'm actually going out right now to buy Civ:Play The World. I sure hope it doesn't suck. Unfortunately, I will have to download a patch before I even play it