17-11-2002 16:28									#31
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quote: i see no reason why the aarbs would be less likely to damn everyone and destroy Israel

well, there is a question of will, and there is a question of ability.

	17-11-2002 16:43									#32
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If I say this everyon'e gonna track me down and kick me in the head for being politically incorrect, but: a world population of three billion would face a much more comfortable life in terms of resources. Six billion is straining the planet. Twenty billion, as humanity will number in fifty years, is inviting calamity. Many food and water populations are related directly to overpopulation, and more specifically people's unwillingness to slow population growth.

But there's still a one in a hundred-and-something-thousand that that asteroid will hit in sixteen years, and the point will be irrelevant.

	17-11-2002 17:53									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Eli The 500 settlers among 130,000 Arabs in Hebron are no different from the 5mil Israelis among 1bil Muslims.

True, neither have a right to be there.

	17-11-2002 18:09									#34
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quote: Right now you have 5.5 million Jews, and about 4.5 to 5 million arabs

The situation today is much closer. A 52:48 ratio if i'm not mistaken.

	17-11-2002 18:47									#35
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At the risk of entering this hotbed of debate, I add my tidbit of information:

quote: Originally posted by GePap A ten-fold reduction in human numbers would entail the death of several billion human beings. Do they forcast some sort of apocalypse coming around that time? The UN population estimates I have seen have some high and low estimates of growth, with the slow putting earths population at around 7-8 billion and high around 12. by 2050

I read in Wired infoporn a while back (cant find the exact issue, dernded ) that the world pop would max out at 9 bil or around at about 2050, (right on target with your readings, ) and...

quote: But that means that most rich nations loose people, while area like Arab states gain.

the US will be the only developed nation in the world whose birth rates do not significantly fall. (Europe will become a place full of old farts as its birthrates virtually collapse.) Basically, it said as technology spreads, birthrates fall. (Which means, whichever nation has the most technology (isreal has more than most of the Arab world I think) will have their population peak or significantly slow growth.

-mrmitchell

	17-11-2002 19:09									#36
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I see that GePapa-Doc is growing more and more disillusioned about the ME-threads. Welcome to the club

	17-11-2002 19:30									#37
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quote: At least I have the sense to look at the entire historical record. It isn't pretty, but it sure as hell helps to get a better picture. But I am sorry if I unfortunitelly have brought up something so terrible as facts into the mix.

Just wanted to point out that if you really feel you have committed to bringing the "facts" to the discussion.... you need to go back a little more than just 54 years of history. You are not looking at the entire historical record as it clearly goes back centuries before Israel ever became a nation.

Just wanted to point out that there are more than one or two sides to a story, and there are long underlying reasons for the problems faced in this region today.

Back to your regularly scheduled program. :-P~~

	17-11-2002 21:05									#38
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Oh come on! This idea that what happened centuries ago has much to do with the current situation is clearly overrated. I agree that there's good reasons to go back more than 54 years, something like 100-150 might be in place. Taking the exodus of 70 AD is pretty much to accept one side of the story as correct. In my opinion what happend 2000 years ago mean very little besides to justify the actions by one or the other side.

	17-11-2002 21:27									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, you Felch X and Oerdin are right! The 650 Jews killed in the last 2 years, plsu the 800 odd killed by terrorism in the previous 50 show how evil the Arabs are.

First of Gepap you need to switch to decafe coffee or something because when ever anyone says something you don't like you jump off the deep end and try to pretend they said something they didn't.

If you reread my previous post you will see that you stated the average Isreali thinks the average arab wishes to do him harm and I implied that it is understandable that Mr. Joe Blow Isreali feels that way. It is not correct but it is understandable.

In the future if you have questions about one of my posts then I invite you to ask me to elaborate; this is generally considered a more mature course of action instead of blowing up and trying to put words in someone's mouth. People will tell you what their opinions are instead of you telling them what their opinions are. BTW I would appriate you editing out the personal insults from your previous post.

	17-11-2002 21:44									#40
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hi ,

you know something guys , the biggest problem to any peace deal , (yes you are reading correct ) is the interference by people from other countries who dont have a clue to what is going on , ..... until they are faced with terrorism , and even then , a terrorist remains a terrorist , but because you are an expert at lets say the IRA , it does not make you an expert at hamas , ....

unless we start to kivk out the people who have nothing to do with us , we shall have no peace , ......

that is one thing you can take to the bank , ......

the second thing is that people and countries have to stop to givce money that in the ned is used against themselfs and us (citizens of Israel regardless of race religion , etc , ...)

ones those things are achieved , well peace is only a Q of time , and it can then be achieved within a very short time frame !

have a nice day

	17-11-2002 21:50									#41
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quote: Originally posted by panag you know something guys , the biggest problem to any peace deal , (yes you are reading correct ) is the interference by people from other countries who dont have a clue to what is going on

You mean people like Siro and Eli, eh?

	17-11-2002 23:45									#42
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Oerdin

I admit I blew, fine, but i still think you have a one sided view, and here's why: I agree that the average Israeli has no reason to trust Arabs and think they hate him, so what about the average Arab? What has the state of israel done to endear itself to them? You got the Refugees, you gt those who have had family members arrested indefinitelly, killed, so forth, and then you have those that live under house arrest and can't send their kids to school. Which of these groups has any reason to trust israelis? So, there is a trut roblem, both ways, and if one ignores that it is a two sided problem, you can't come up with a solution.

Panag

You are right, I have never lived with terrorism, and let me add: SO WHAT? International problems are not solved by feelings. There is a reason when a crime is committed that the jury be impartial, unconnected and unemotional: because if it is any of those, it can't come up with an equitable, fair, workable solution. The peace deal in Bosnia, a aplce that saw far more bloodshed than israel has seen, was created by outsiders. The peacedeal in northern ireland was helped along by outsiders as well. I don't have any confidence in the two aprties of this dispute slving it by themselves, for the very reasons you say you can: because you are emotionally attached, because you function based on past experiences and the feelings they bring up: so do the palestinians, and since the past is so damn bloody, neither of the two sides is able to think ahead, only backwards.

	18-11-2002 01:18									#43
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quote: and if one ignores that it is a two sided problem, you can't come up with a solution.

noone ignores that. But Whenever you go into the blame game, I am ready to play ball.

	18-11-2002 01:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel noone ignores that. But Whenever you go into the blame game, I am ready to play ball.

Oh, i have never claimed to be impartial. I do think that certain policies are the underlying evil of the situation and I think everyone knows which policies are those.

Everyone is guilty of what they have done: Hamas and IJ and Al Aqsa are guilty of what are now classifiesd as war crimes, Fatah and the PA are guilty of breaking their security guarantees to israel and lookig aside as the forementioned groups carry out their war crimes. The israeli government is also guilty of war crimes (settlements are a crime of war), mass violations of human rights, and looking the other way as some israeli citizens are themselves guilty of criminal acts (not war crimes, as they are not states or organizations). Everyone involved needs to be judged correctly, and then we need plan of action to stop all these crimes from continuing, and while I conced that the vilent crimes need to stop first, they can never be used to justified the no less morally reprehansable crimes listed.

	18-11-2002 01:36									#45
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quote: and while I conced that the vilent crimes need to stop first, they can never be used to justified the no less morally reprehansable crimes listed.

I am glad to hear that we can shake hands on that. I'd like, however to raise the question of validity of The Geneva Convention, and point out that it hasn't been respect in any military engagement yet. The same could be said of the UNs founding charter concerning most states human rights, and economic priorities, etc. If noone protects the law, give me a single reason for an interesant party to abide it.

	18-11-2002 01:42									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What lawless void? In 1948 jordan illegally occupied these areas, annexed them and impossed its laws. then in 1967 israel illegally occupied them, and while it did not annex them, it impossed military rule, and eventually the civil administration. And it is at this point, the point of Israeli military and then civli control that settlements begun and were then nurtured, by labor and Likud governments. i fail to see a moment of lawlessness.

I think, GePap, this is where your position becomes debatable.

Prior to '48, both Jew and Arab had a right to live anywhere in Palestine. If you accept the general principle of the United Nations, that one cannot legally change borders by force, no action by force by any state subsequent to ’48 should have been able to change this basic fact. I believe the UN still agrees that the displaced Arabs have a right of return. I believe that UN law and justice demands the same treatment of Jews.

I further note that Israel is comprised of Arabs who actually have full rights as citizens. In contrast, Arabs routinely attack Jewish residents in the West Bank and Gaza.

Your labeling of Israel’s '67 restoration of the status ante to Arab conquests in '48 as "illegal" is the problem with your position.

Arabs demand the eviction of the Jews from the West Bank and Gaza even while they demand that Arabs be allowed to return to Israel. One can easily see the injustice of this demand. An appropriate response by Israel would be to evict all Arabs from Israel if the settlers are evicted in any final settlement of a Palestinian state.

More and more it seems that a better solution would be one to integrate Arabs into a greater Israel.

	18-11-2002 01:53									#47
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well, I really don't see it working. The'll be half of the population, and though I am not really fond of the working ethics of our government , this is small change to the lack of any governing morality over there. Corruption is so-widespread, that a law-abiding clerk is a rare phenomenon. I could see a trickling integration, but all at once, no way. Plus, the economy would collapse.

	18-11-2002 01:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I am glad to hear that we can shake hands on that. I'd like, however to raise the question of validity of The Geneva Convention, and point out that it hasn't been respect in any military engagement yet. The same could be said of the UNs founding charter concerning most states human rights, and economic priorities, etc. If noone protects the law, give me a single reason for an interesant party to abide it.

First of all, if you say screw the rules, then what exaclty is wrong with bus bombings, huh? If it is so ruthless and lawless, and you can excuse, or I should excuse not following the rules, then i have no way to condenm the attacks carried out by Hamas or IJ or A;l Aqsa, since they are doing what they can in hitting 'soft tragets' since they lack the firepower to go for 'hard ones'.

Not following the rules has gotten israeli nowhere: why not trya fresh approach?

	18-11-2002 01:55									#49
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You need a peace and reconcilliation commission, like the South Africans have.

	18-11-2002 02:05									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Prior to '48, both Jew and Arab had a right to live anywhere in Palestine. If you accept the general principle of the United Nations, that one cannot legally change borders by force, no action by force by any state subsequent to ’48 should have been able to change this basic fact. I believe the UN still agrees that the displaced Arabs have a right of return. I believe that UN law and justice demands the same treatment of Jews.

Well, then even Israel within the green line can't be acepted by that definition. look at a map of the partition lines: What today is recognized as israel includes significant sections of the lands that were supposed to be part of the Arab state. As for people returning. you are rght,r efugees have the right to return, but only refugees. The lands given to the Arabs by the partition plan included about 20,000 Jews. If we say that all refugees get to go home, then fine, these 20,000 jews can go home, and so can the 750,000 Palestinians. But no one else fits under that category. there were no Jews in Hebron or around it as of 1948- so that no Jew living there can claim to be a refugee returning home. Very few arabs could call themselves refugees from Tel Aviv itself. perhaps nearbye Jaffa, but not Tel Aviv.

quote: I further note that Israel is comprised of Arabs who actually have full rights as citizens. In contrast, Arabs routinely attack Jewish residents in the West Bank and Gaza.

Jewish settler are Israeli ctizens living outside of Israeli territory. I do not endorse attacking settlers, but Arabs who are Israeli citizens have every right to live where they live and a modern democratic state should be expected to provide safety and equality under the law to all its citizens regardless of ethnicity. jewish settlers live where they live illegaly. At best they can be seen as illegal squatters living on and that is not theirs.

quote: Your labeling of Israel’s '67 restoration of the status ante to Arab conquests in '48 as "illegal" is the problem with your position.

None of the lands Israel took in 1967 were ever intended to be Part of Israel, if we take the 1947 partition as the uideline for what was who's. So israel taking these lands is in no way a 'restoration'.

quote: Arabs demand the eviction of the Jews from the West Bank and Gaza even while they demand that Arabs be allowed to return to Israel. One can easily see the injustice of this demand. An appropriate response by Israel would be to evict all Arabs from Israel if the settlers are evicted in any final settlement of a Palestinian state.

Again, there is a vast difference between the status of people as refugees, defined as individuals who lived somewhere and were then forced to move, or moved because of fear of attack, who's right to return is guaranteed by international laws, and migrants, who are people not from somewhere moving there. All sattes have the right to control immigration. Israel has it, and so would any future palestiian state. Settlers do not count as migrants, they count as ilegal settlers, oulawed by ionternational law.

quote: More and more it seems that a better solution would be one to integrate Arabs into a greater Israel.

I agree that afederal union would be best for both sides. sadly neither side wants it.

	18-11-2002 02:08									#51
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quote: First of all, if you say screw the rules, then what exaclty is wrong with bus bombings, huh? If it is so ruthless and lawless, and you can excuse, or I should excuse not following the rules, then i have no way to condenm the attacks carried out by Hamas or IJ or A;l Aqsa, since they are doing what they can in hitting 'soft tragets' since they lack the firepower to go for 'hard ones'. Not following the rules has gotten israeli nowhere: why not trya fresh approach?

1) we're pretty well off.
2) Following the rules when everyone else doesn't, would be rather stupid and would give the other side the edge, don't you think? think of a country a monolith entity. It's not correct, but similarly to newtonian physics it's a damn good approximation in the scope we're looking. "but then you're not better than them" is right , but being better is on a second priority when your existance is in danger.

	18-11-2002 02:16									#52
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The Sunday Times :

As a result of the Hebron terract Sharon ordered the Mossad to move Ramadan Abdalla Shalah, the head of the Islamic Jihad who resides in Damascus, to the top of the hit list.

Shalah replaced Pathi Shkaki who founded the organization in the 70s and led it until he was assasinated in Malta in 1995.

	18-11-2002 02:22									#53
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Lets see if this map of the 1947 partition plan works:



Israel has been violating the civil and human rights of Palestinians since 1967. The current violence begun in 2000, and even suicide bombing begun in 1994. So there are 26 years in which your agument Azazel is somewhat invalid.

	18-11-2002 02:27									#54
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Try this.

	18-11-2002 02:30									#55
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Great site Che: thanks.

I had gone to the UN site on the Palestinian question. You would think they would have better maps

	18-11-2002 02:31									#56
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oh sure. Let's forget about the murders of school kids, more than 30 in number in a single incident which I remember, simply because I made the english version of their commemoration site, multitudes of attacks on truck convoys of supplies, on the road to Jerusalem, attacks on buses in the negev, and many more. I am not going even to talk about the beginning of the Jewish-arab violence in 26' or so, when the arabs attacked the jews, because they've installed a small cordon that separated the men and women during prayer at the wailing wall. The damn PLO was established before 67'. What's more to say? plus, I was talking about other arab neighbours: Jordan has occupied the West bank for 19 years. Syria is still occupying Lebanon.

oh, and the map doesn't work.

	18-11-2002 02:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Great site Che: thanks.

Thank you. It's part of my personal website. I scanned the images in and colored them a few years back for my first ME thread. Oh how naive I was.

	18-11-2002 02:37									#58
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The thing about those maps, is that they show how unfair the partition was to Israel. You can't tell me that this map is fair to Israel.


The partition plan would have given the Palestinians an independant State, yet the Arabs still attacked Israel in 48'

	18-11-2002 02:38									#59
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The PLO was a paper organization before 1967, however, Azazel. It wasn't until Arafat and Fatah took the group over that it was anything more than a mouth peice for Nasser.

	18-11-2002 02:42									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel oh sure. Let's forget about the murders of school kids, more than 30 in number in a single incident which I remember, simply because I made the english version of their commemoration site, multitudes of attacks on truck convoys of supplies, on the road to Jerusalem, attacks on buses in the negev, and many more. I am not going even to talk about the beginning of the Jewish-arab violence in 26' or so, when the arabs attacked the jews, because they've installed a small cordon that separated the men and women during prayer at the wailing wall. The damn PLO was established before 67'. What's more to say? plus, I was talking about other arab neighbours: Jordan has occupied the West bank for 19 years. Syria is still occupying Lebanon. oh, and the map doesn't work.

First, go to Che's links. Very infomative.

Second: Arab-Israeli violence went both ways. What about Israeli massacres of palestinians between 1948-49? Second, while Fatah was created before 1967, in 1964 (wow), the PLO as a group organization begun in 1968. Plus, go to your own governments foreign minstry site, in English. It gives a list of all Israeli killed in what the Israeli government calls terrorist attacks. A total of about 280 or so before the first intafadah: that, I am sorry to say, hardly justifies the occupation. Yes, Jordan occupied the place for 19 years, so? Look, you beat them at that too! Oh, and don't be too angry that Syria ended up winning the whole 'who gets to make Lebanon their puppet' game Israel and Syria fought from 1982.

Let me be clear: Nothing justifies the occupation of the west Bank and gaza. Nothing, anymore than the occupation justifies terrorist attacks.