13-12-2002 23:39									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I mean lets face it NZ recently lost a game, drew a game and won a meaningless fixture with Wales and went homing claiming to be the worlds best so I don’t think it is England who have the biggest problem with getting things in perspective eh?

But we are always the world's best, so what's new...?

quote: In all seriousness Caligastia I’m sure you realise that another ref on another day (and basically not a weak SH type like both games had) and you would have badly lost both the English and French games - superb individual efforts from Howlett and a Wilkinson slip poach from Blair aside. I do wish your coaches would teach you players about staying behind the offside line on occasion. Then again if they did you wouldn't be quite so much the mighty All Blacks probably.

So what you are saying is that if the refs had been different, and we hadn't scored so many tries, you would have won by more? Uhhh...ok, I'll give you that one.

...and what is this mythical offside line you keep referring to?

	14-12-2002 00:16									#452
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia But we are always the world's best, so what's new...?

Perhaps, but the current World Champion is Australia.

The AB have always been the favorites but we are doing our best to put an end to this.

quote: So what you are saying is that if the refs had been different, and we hadn't scored so many tries, you would have won?

Though with another referee France would have certainly scored a penalty try, the French players have not used the good tactic and have not been able to adapt themselves against opponents that were nonetheless largely dominated.

quote: ...and what is this mythical offside line you keep referring to?

The offside concept is already disappearing from the collective consciousness of the SH people.

	14-12-2002 20:47									#453
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Some H-Cup results :

Montferrand was beaten yesterday by the Leinster and Bourgoin has lost its game against Glasgow.

At the end of the first half time, Biarritz at home in a sunny Aguilerra Stadium is leading 15-3 against the Ulster Province.

	14-12-2002 21:36									#454
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Biarritz 25 - Ulster 20

Though it is a victory the end result is not as good as it seems. The first place of the pool (only the first is qualified) will certainly be decided by the goal average and/or the number of tries. At the end of this game, the Biarritz Olympique is only leading by one point and one try. Will this be enough ?

The BO has even been very lucky as an invalid try has been scored in their favor, the referees were far from the action and decided a bit quickly in my own opinion.

13' before the end of the game the BO was leading by 12 points, a clever coaching and the famous Irish fighting spirit allowed the Ulster to come back while the "Biarrots" relaxed themselves in the same time.


Some other (partial) results :

The Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan (USAP) has won at home against Gloucester, the AS Béziers-Héraut playing away has been laminated by the Leicester Tigers...

Last edited by Tamerlin on 14-12-2002 at 23:42

	15-12-2002 12:30									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin The Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan (USAP) has won at home against Gloucester, the AS Béziers-Héraut playing away has been laminated by the Leicester Tigers...

Damn Tractor Boys!

OTOH, it was an Australian - Manny Edmonds - who sank them!

	15-12-2002 12:56									#456
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quote: Originally posted by Havak We didn’t squeak home as far as I am concerned – two of their tries were results of our errors in attack and that can happen to the best of sides.

The name Luger springs to mind. A scoreline is a scoreline, you've argued before, I believe, with the means by which the scoreline has been achieved absolutely irrelevant.

quote: Plus I think the point you are missing here is that they play us so rarely these days that given wins against them have always been such a rare thing we have to enjoy it whilst we can.

That dang self-esteem problem rears its head again!

quote: Also because I am English I think you need to understand I have been exceptionally polite about them. Yes certain things impressed me – Howlett simply blew me away for example but he is first string for sure, but on the whole I saw a team whose forwards came off clearly second best, who were shown far too much respect by our lads and who were in the final analysis very lucky to end so close to us.

... Dan Luger ... Dan Luger ...

quote: I honestly think a referee who policed the game line more effectively would have seen them totally out of the game as their entire game is built on infringement – the classic “what you can get away with”.

I'm bored shooting you down with your own words, so this time I'll settle for - horsesh*t! Classic revisionism.

quote: It’s really not cricket for any Kiwi to bleat about the tour being a second string side by the way – don’t send men in the jersey unless you are happy for them the represent you – that’s as rude as we were to Australia in 1998 if you do so. Talk instead about how it was a “shame we couldn’t see” Jack or McCaw rather than say “with them we would have beaten you” because frankly – you simply don’t know that.

Sorry for treading on your patch, Caligastia, but I can't resist. Who has claimed "with them we would have beaten you"? No one in this forum as far as I can recall. You're quite right, it's hypothetical and therefore meaningless. If it's the Planet Rugby nongs who are offending you, take it up with them. In fact, let me know when, and I'll join you.

quote: Would Ireland then have buried the Wallabies were Keith Wood fit?

What difference would Ben Tune, Matt Rogers, et al, have made to any of the matches? Who knows? If one's auntie had a beard, she'd be one's uncle.

quote: I trust you realise my advise there is generally aimed at kiwis Finbar - and is not another example of my homogenising antipodeans.

Fear not, I'm happy to shoot down revisionism and irrelevance at any opportunity!

quote: I saw the same games highlights and read it differently. They looked like England to me – backs and forwards in separate game plans. Nowhere near as good as against us.

I saw the whole game. They certainly weren't as good as they were against you. They coughed up so much ball it wasn't funny. The Welsh defended like buggery but the dam finally broke.

	15-12-2002 18:23									#457
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Damn Tractor Boys! OTOH, it was an Australian - Manny Edmonds - who sank them!

Quoting myself again? So sue me!

By chance, tonight, FoxSports showed a replay of last week's Tractor Boys -v- Perpignan match at Kingsholm, won by the TBs. It's the first time I've ever seen the TBs play, and my first look at my home ground. I can't say I'd like to be an oppo supporter trapped in The Shed. But I really love the character of those sorts of English grounds - they're intimate, you're right on top of the action, and everyone's jammed in together. Makes for great atmosphere.

That aside, it was a very scrappy game with the TBs looking more clumsy than I thought they were with a lot of botched set pieces. The Welsh ref - Mr Williams - seemed to have trouble sorting out the front rows (Phil Vickery was left bemused more than once) and the Perpignan forwards did some damage. Perpignan looked dangerous more than a couple of times with some backline charges, and the TBs' defence looked a bit soft and disorganised. They let Perpignan make enormous ground running the ball back from the kickoffs.

Manny Edmonds was Perpignan's best - a polished fly half performance in a scrappy game. He's not yet quite in synch with his teammates, though, because a lot of his deft flicks back inside - staple diet stuff when he was playing here - were missed by his teammates. OTOH, Ludovic Mercier was the TBs' best by a mile too (while Henry Paul didn't contribute a great deal). Frankly, based on what I saw, I'm not surprised they lost away to Perpignan last night. Perpignan only had to be more consistent than they were last week in order to be truly dangerous at home.

I've never seen Maurice Garvey before, Havak, but he's certainly got some potential for a 19 year old! He's like a turbo-charged cannon ball!

	15-12-2002 21:06									#458
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quote: Originally posted by finbar If one's auntie had a beard, she'd be one's uncle.

We have the same popular sentence in France though the beard is actually replaced by b***s.

	15-12-2002 21:21									#459
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I really love the character of those sorts of English grounds - they're intimate, you're right on top of the action, and everyone's jammed in together. Makes for great atmosphere.

Here we call these stadiums : "stades à l'anglaise" and they are very appreciated. The public being closed to the field, the atmosphere is often very hot.

quote: ...and the Perpignan forwards did some damage.

This is the main strong point of the USAP.

quote: Ludovic Mercier was the TBs' best by a mile too (while Henry Paul didn't contribute a great deal).

His carreer in England is exemplary, it's a pity such a player is not playing in France when we lack quality halves.

quote: Perpignan only had to be more consistent than they were last week in order to be truly dangerous at home.

Consistency seems to be the main problem of the USAP this year, some great play but occasionally only. If they can keep their players for several years they will gradually become more dangerous.

	15-12-2002 21:30									#460
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Stade Toulousain 50 - Edinburgh 17

A little game between friends, the scottish players have been rapidly distanced by the Stade Toulousain's light cavalry (Vincent Clerc, Xavier Garbajosa, Yannick Jauzion and Clément Poitrenaud) launched by an inspired Yann Delaigue (half fly) and a quick Frédéric Michalack (half scrum). The Scotts never surrendered but never managed to come back.

A great "hurrah!" for the Scottish supporters...

	16-12-2002 02:39									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin We have the same popular sentence in France though the beard is actually replaced by b***s.

You sometimes get that version in English, too, but the "beard" version is much more common.

	16-12-2002 02:51									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Here we call these stadiums : "stades à l'anglaise" and they are very appreciated. The public being closed to the field, the atmosphere is often very hot.

They're sort of similar to the club grounds here, only ours are much less developed because of the much smaller crowds and lack of money. Often we will have a small-ish grandstand and that's about it. A lot of spectators park their cars around the fence and watch the game from their cars.

quote: This is the main strong point of the USAP.

They looked very strong and quite mobile. The locks made some very strong runs straight through some ordinary Gloucester defence, and their pack shoved the Gloucester around quite a few times.

quote: His carreer in England is exemplary, it's a pity such a player is not playing in France when we lack quality halves.

Where would he rank in France? Is he a national team player?

quote: Consistency seems to be the main problem of the USAP this year, some great play but occasionally only. If they can keep their players for several years they will gradually become more dangerous.

I hope FoxSports show the return Gloucester-Perpignan match next week. I'd really like to see what happened. From the reports I've read, Gloucester really only made an impression on the scoreboard very late in the game. Manny Edmonds, when his mind is on the job, can be a fly half of real quality. His problem here was that he didn't ever really produce the goods when given the opportunity. For example, he starred for Australia A against the French this season, but, on other occasions, hardly featured. It might be that the responsibility he will carry at Perpignan will bring out the best in him. If it does, and if his teammates can get used to his creative style, they will be a dangerous team in attack.

	16-12-2002 02:52									#463
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OK for good reason i c no South African has posted on this thread....or im assuming

I saw all the matches and as a bok supporter but an avid rugby fan as well i have to say after all the hype and performance and emotions and victory and decimation

1. Northern hemisphere rugby has never been so strong. England is certainly a serious contender for the world cup!
2. All credit to England,Scotland( yip up their kilts! ) and Ireland and the cookadoodles (vive le France ) for their performances they certainly deserved the win on the day.BTW last sentence said tongue in cheek by a sore loser LOL
3. In defense of SA rugby.....the current manager Rudolph Strauli is a typical moronic dutchmen who still believes in the old style play and cant decide from match to match on who to pick and who to leave in!
We have some brilliant players that were injured/left out i.e Mark Andrews albeit hes getting on a bit.
Im not making excuses but when half the bok team have left SA and are playing overseas...need i explain...and Straulis managing skills to boot....kinda wraps up what the bok team take to the field. Yes in the end no one will remember the ifs and buts...and the controversial decisions!

Still a while to the next world cup...perhaps things may change. DOnt underestimate SA...u do so at your peril....

On another note....the level of match violence and referreing is a rather more worrying factor. TV replays often clearly show the result but the ref swings the reverse!

	16-12-2002 02:54									#464
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin A great "hurrah!" for the Scottish supporters...

And lots of flasks of Scotch! I bet it was freezing cold!

	16-12-2002 03:07									#465
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quote: Originally posted by mandarin OK for good reason i c no South African has posted on this thread....or im assuming

Hi mandarin! Welcome. We've had the occasional Springbok poster but no one consistently. You're most welcome to represent the Bok cause. We take our rugby seriously here, but very little else. We've got a Pom, two Frenchmen, a couple of Kiwis, and a handful of Wallabies. And we have a lot of fun.

quote: 1. Northern hemisphere rugby has never been so strong. England is certainly a serious contender for the world cup!

Yep, the NH teams are playing very well. Don't underestimate France either.

quote: 3. In defense of SA rugby.....the current manager Rudolph Strauli is a typical moronic dutchmen who still believes in the old style play and cant decide from match to match on who to pick and who to leave in!

It has been agreed in this thread that Strauli is the Springboks' biggest problem. On top of his selection inconsistency, his condoning of the stupid play that results in so many penalties (and the red and yellow cards) is ridiculous. Or, if he doesn't condone it, his inability to discipline the team is pathetic.

quote: We have some brilliant players that were injured/left out i.e Mark Andrews albeit hes getting on a bit.

I keep referring to this season's return Tri-Nations match at Ellis Park where the Boks actually concentrated on playing rugby rather than giving away stupid penalties. There is some skill in the Boks' outfit but it's being wasted. And the worst offender, IMHO, is the skipper, Krige.

quote: Im not making excuses but when half the bok team have left SA and are playing overseas

That's your other big problem (on top of Strauli) - the lure of the big money in Europe. Australia faces the same problem.

quote: Still a while to the next world cup...perhaps things may change. DOnt underestimate SA...u do so at your peril....

Find a coach who will develop and utilise the team's skills (rather than handicap the team with so many stupid penalties and variously coloured cards) and the Boks would be a real threat.

	16-12-2002 04:09									#466
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Where would he rank in France? Is he a national team player?

It's rather difficult to answer as I haven't seen him playing since he left for England, I think he has progressed and is close to the national team level.

Good Half-Fly are scarce in France, Merceron is one of them, Yann Delaigue has proved today he can be one of the greatest and has often played with France A, Gelez is lacking some experience and is not yet ready...

The problem is even more critical for the Half-Scrums, after Galthié the sits are empty. Frédéric Michalack has been very good today but is still lacking some experience (in my own opinion he should rather play Half-Fly), Jean-Baptiste Elissalde (former Half-Fly and also playing for the Stade Toulousain) is tested as a Half-Scrum and has already produced some very good performances. Wait and see...

quote: hope FoxSports show the return Gloucester-Perpignan match next week.

It was the return match, Gloucester won at Perpignan 33-16 and Ludovic Mercier was quoted as one of the best players of the game.

quote: From the reports I've read, Gloucester really only made an impression on the scoreboard very late in the game. Manny Edmonds, when his mind is on the job, can be a fly half of real quality. His problem here was that he didn't ever really produce the goods when given the opportunity. For example, he starred for Australia A against the French this season, but, on other occasions, hardly featured. It might be that the responsibility he will carry at Perpignan will bring out the best in him. If it does, and if his teammates can get used to his creative style, they will be a dangerous team in attack.

I have never seen this player, I will have a look at the comments in the Midi Olympique.

	16-12-2002 04:37									#467
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Welcome aboard Mandarin, Finbar has already summed up the situation, you know where you are walking.

quote: Originally posted by mandarin 1. Northern hemisphere rugby has never been so strong. England is certainly a serious contender for the world cup!

It's always a pleasure to hear that though the reputation of England is largely overestimated or will be considered this way until the Six Nations Tournament and the England-France game at Twickenham.

quote: 3. In defense of SA rugby.....the current manager Rudolph Strauli is a typical moronic dutchmen who still believes in the old style play and cant decide from match to match on who to pick and who to leave in! We have some brilliant players that were injured/left out i.e Mark Andrews albeit hes getting on a bit. Im not making excuses but when half the bok team have left SA and are playing overseas...

We all agree here that the main problem of the Springboks is their Coaching Staff and the lack of discipline. We all hope South African Rugby will recover from what seems to be a significant crisis.

quote: Still a while to the next world cup...perhaps things may change. DOnt underestimate SA...u do so at your peril....

Well, if SA Rugby had to recover from its crisis I would prefer it to take place after the World Cup.

quote: On another note....the level of match violence and referreing is a rather more worrying factor. TV replays often clearly show the result but the ref swings the reverse!

The trouble is that, beyond the referees' decisions, those violences are not a recent problem, I remember Mark Andrews and Butch James as "killers" since a few years now (at least for the first one), the problem will be difficult to cure but the recovery of South Africa is at this price.

	16-12-2002 05:00									#468
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin It's rather difficult to answer as I haven't seen him playing since he left for England, I think he has progressed and is close to the national team level.

Does France pick players who are playing with foreign clubs?

quote: It was the return match, Gloucester won at Perpignan 33-16 and Ludovic Mercier was quoted as one of the best players of the game.

No, the match I saw on Foxtel was played on 8/12 at Gloucester and Gloucester beat Perpignan 33-16. This weekend just gone, 14/12, in the return match at Perpignan, Gloucester lost 23-31. Manny Edmonds scored at least one try for Perpignan and kicked a lot of points.

	16-12-2002 05:11									#469
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Does France pick players who are playing with foreign clubs?

Yes, hence the return of the "Petit Prince", Thomas Castaignede, in the French team.

quote: No, the match I saw on Foxtel was played on 8/12 at Gloucester and Gloucester beat Perpignan 33-16. This weekend just gone, 14/12, in the return match at Perpignan, Gloucester lost 23-31. Manny Edmonds scored at least one try for Perpignan and kicked a lot of points.

Your channels are broadcasting the foreign games after some delay... with the posters here giving the results there must be a lack of suspense.

	16-12-2002 05:28									#470
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Your channels are broadcasting the foreign games after some delay... with the posters here giving the results there must be a lack of suspense.

Yeah, but at least they're showing them only a week late. Last season they showed only the Heineken final and about a month after it had been played! Even though I knew the result of the match I was watching, my real interest was in seeing (a) Gloucester play for the first time (and, to be honest, I was a bit disappointed by what I saw); and (b) Manny Edmonds play for Perpignan.

	16-12-2002 13:46									#471
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quote: ...and what is this mythical offside line you keep referring to

Dang – I was really hoping to get you on the hook I set up there. Well done for avoiding it totally and in good spirit.

	16-12-2002 15:16									#472
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quote: OTOH, it was an Australian - Manny Edmonds - who sank them!

A marvellous irony for me there. When the loss was announced on our tannoy it got almost the biggest cheer of the game. We are a friendly bunch at Welford road.

quote: The name Luger springs to mind. A scoreline is a scoreline, you've argued before, I believe, with the means by which the scoreline has been achieved absolutely irrelevant.

Let me turn that one back on you. A loss is a loss is a loss. Regardless of margin. To witness the way the Kiwis have celebrated it almost as a world cup win is pretty weird n’est pas?

quote: That dang self-esteem problem rears its head again!

It’s more I am conscious of the reality – our record against them is not good at all. So to have them take the wind out our achievement is turning them over is a bit of a downer.

quote: ... Dan Luger ... Dan Luger ...

Where’s the parallel? He was onside when he set off on the run ending in that superb try.

quote: Classic revisionism.

What can I say – god help you when you get a Northern referee if you think that was wrong.

quote: Who has claimed "with them we would have beaten you"?

Did I finger anyone on this thread as having done so? My rant was aimed on the Nongs but frankly they are largely beyond my help – you guys are not.

quote: I can't say I'd like to be an oppo supporter trapped in The Shed.

It’s unique even amongst English grounds.

quote: Phil Vickery was left bemused more than once

Nothing new there then!

quote: I've never seen Maurice Garvey before, Havak, but he's certainly got some potential for a 19 year old! He's like a turbo-charged cannon ball!

The lad has massive potential – you described him very accurately. With Simpson-Daniel on the other wing the TBs are very potent indeed.

quote: Here we call these stadiums : "stades à l'anglaise" and they are very appreciated. The public being closed to the field, the atmosphere is often very hot.

For example I was close enough Saturday to throw into the line outs. The Crumbie terrace is as close to the field as the Shed for example.
Out of time again – damned work. Later gentlemen.

	16-12-2002 16:38									#473
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quote: Originally posted by Havak By the way did the Romans or Etruscans play Rugby? I bet if they did they played to NH interpretations.

I think they did...they played a game called harpastum , if I remember well...it was played with a ball that could be touched with the hands....

	16-12-2002 17:29									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Sloth I think they did...they played a game called harpastum , if I remember well...it was played with a ball that could be touched with the hands....

Being of the NH, of course, they would never have been offside either.

	16-12-2002 17:38									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Havak A marvellous irony for me there. When the loss was announced on our tannoy it got almost the biggest cheer of the game. We are a friendly bunch at Welford road.

I'm hoping to see a Leicester match in FoxSport's coverage of the Heineken series. I'm dying to see this Welford Road set-up. I'm also dying to see an ample, retired tighthead prop with a receding hairline clutching a couple of pints in each beefy mitt in the crowd.

quote: Let me turn that one back on you.

The oldest standby in the book when there's no way off the hook.

quote: Where’s the parallel? He was onside when he set off on the run ending in that superb try.

Another bullet unsuccessfully and unsubtly dodged.

quote: The lad has massive potential – you described him very accurately. With Simpson-Daniel on the other wing the TBs are very potent indeed.

But they looked pretty scrappy elsewhere, particularly in the set pieces. Maybe it was just an off day, though they popped over to Perpignan the next week and got rolled. Henry Paul did next to nothing in the match I saw. Mercier almost carried them at times. He looks like a very useful player.

	16-12-2002 17:45									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Havak What can I say – god help you when you get a Northern referee if you think that was wrong.

Praying God won't be enough, it is far more easier to change the laws of the game.

	16-12-2002 17:46									#477
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Hi fin....ty for the welcome.Dang i just posted an entire compendium of replies....i submit and "forum is forkin down" message"

Suffice to say yip gotta agree with the likes of Butch,Mulder + Fleck (im no fan of his i c thru his agreessive style play ) and wonderboys like skinstad,montgomery we really will be takin to the cleaners?

The rising stars never get a chance...its the same old ***** in the backline....

	16-12-2002 17:53									#478
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quote: Originally posted by Sloth I think they did...they played a game called harpastum , if I remember well...it was played with a ball that could be touched with the hands....

Hi Sloth, I have never heard of this harpastum, do you know where we can find more informations on the subject ?

Other sports using a ball you can touch with the hands have been played throughout history. In the medieval era a game called "la soule" was played between neighbouring towns or villages. The goal of the game was to bring a "ball" to the center of the other village and the end justified the means. The game that led to Rugby and later to S***** was certainly a more formalized version of this older game.

	16-12-2002 18:35									#479
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hi, Tamerlin
try this...
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w...6/romeball.html

	16-12-2002 18:41									#480
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quote: Originally posted by Sloth hi, Tamerlin try this... http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w...6/romeball.html

Thanks Sloth, I will have a look at this tonight.