21-11-2002 03:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I stated in the Election thread that I intended to stand down... If it is determined that I won the election (I highly doubt this will be the result) then I am prepared to serve...

I am sorry OC, but we are not pestering anyone. GF maintains that he has conceded, BUT... 'if it is determined I won...'

There can be no BUT in a concession or it is not a concession.

When I sent him a note to clarify he responded with an IF... I am sorry, but the court is not here to negotiate with candidates.

I feel badly for everyone involved, but we cannot go off willy nilly making our minds up as to what someone 'intends' from contradictory statements on an issue such as this. Well maybe we can, but a majority of the court has declined to do so.

/Edit. The PM I sent him to clarify his action was before this thread started. I did not send him a PM regarding his posts in this thread.

	21-11-2002 04:18									#32
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I feel badly for everyone involved, but we cannot go off willy nilly making our minds up as to what someone 'intends' from contradictory statements on an issue such as this. Well maybe we can, but a majority of the court has declined to do so.

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I have been very consistent, I have stated I would step down in every thread, I told Aggie to let E_T handle the DM duties while it was resolved. The only reason I have not completely "washed my hands" of the issue is because notyoueither said it would only take a few (2-3) days. I don't see why the court is laying the situation at my feet as I have tried to make it easy on the system and insure we had a DM no matter what the elections status. Since my actions have apparently done nothing but undermine the court and prevent the nation of Apolytonia from having a DM I hereby withdraw completely from the Democracy Game.

So the Court blames GF for being wishy-washy despite GF's withdrawal from the game and continuted public stance that he withdrew to keep this from being a controversy. This is getting ridiculous, NYE. Stop the insanity. GF is clearly saying that if you guys decide to MAKE him DM, he'll do the job, but he is not asking you to. He is not contesting anything, and I seem to remember there being specific language in the law that requires there to be a contested issue before the Court can be involved. He resigned and he's made that clear to the rest of us. Why is it that only The Court thinks this is unclear?

It is now five days after the "contested" election and there still is nothing in place to determine how the Court will resolve this, this poll won't close until tomorrow and then what will you do? Wait arond until one of the Gods unlocks the election results, spend a couple more days reading them, then spend a couple more days on top of that arguing how you should use them or if they really tell you anything useful? Then what?

Where are we going with this and what is the point of going through all this drama for something that is moot to begin with?

--Togas

	21-11-2002 04:43									#33
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Togas, GF made that statement yesterday. The members of the court are considering it. Sheik has my opinion on it.

Again, I will point out that a message sent by GF to me differs considerably from the statements of someone who is conceeding.

Now, please do not blame GF for this, and do not blame the court. It is GF's right to communicate his intentions with the court. It is the courts responsibility to interpret his public and private communications. That is being done.

	21-11-2002 05:35									#34
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To all future candidates, please DO NOT concede when there is a tie in election polls. You are just doing injustice to all of those who have voted FOR you.

GF decision to withdraw is a magnanimous gesture, irregardless of all that was said on his consistency, but this is not really a right decision. And we should not allow future candidates to take the same action.

	21-11-2002 05:46									#35
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The Court has made a decision.

---------------

The Court has declared E_T the new Domestic Minister.

---------------

A post explaining the process taken and the reason for E_T being declared the winner will be made shortly in the topped Court thread.

Thank You

EDIT:
Full decision has been posted in The Court thread.

Last edited by Sheik on 21-11-2002 at 06:31

	21-11-2002 06:36									#36
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I am going to break my exile for this.

Its a good thing I was willing to withdraw because after an entire week+ the court has accomplished absolutely nothing. To all those who voted to keep the race tied for the sole purpose of getting kicks and giggles at seeing democracy in action I am very sorely disappointed.

This issue was ONLY resolved by my willingness to step down, otherwise the game would still be in limbo, and we would still not have a DM. The court swore it would work on setting a procedure even if I conceded and it failed to do so.

Finally, after the court laid all blame for its inability to determine a procedure at my feet, I was forced to completely withdraw from the Democracy game in order to get a working DM established.

There have been many issues which I have disagreed with both slightly and some not so slightly, but is the by far the worse example of our Democracy system failing.

I apologize for this rudeness and uncivility, but after over a week of taking the abuse and accusations of conspiracy and "that I have been undermining the court" I am completely fed up.

RECAP:
1) Election tied.
2) I conceeded.
3) Court whines that it would have resolved the situation in 2-3 days and asks me to let it decide.
4) I agree to allow the court to establish a system of solving ties.
5) 4 days after the 2-3 days E_T asks whats up with the court.
6) Court says it may take a week
7) Court posts a 3-day poll
8) Court claims they can't make a decision because I didn't conceed.
9) I conceed again.
10) Court claims they can't make a decision because I conceeded.
11) I resign completely from the Democracy game making my vote for DM uncountable.
12) E_T now has won by one vote.
13) Several days later the court decides it was all my fault and "gives" the election to E_T because it was my fault.

Sheesh.

	21-11-2002 06:48									#37
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quote: I was forced to completely withdraw from the Democracy game in order to get a working DM established.

quote: I apologize for this rudeness and uncivility, but after over a week of taking the abuse and accusations of conspiracy and "that I have been undermining the court" I am completely fed up.

No need to apologize you are free to say almost anything you want. No one forced you to withdraw from the democracy game. The Court does not blame you for anything. We feel we had to proceed a certain way and are still looking at ways to resolve future ties. The Court meets about once a week and will be looking at ways to resolve the issue. If anyone has further questions please see the opinion in The Court Thread before posting them here.

Thank You

	21-11-2002 06:49									#38
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I am personally sorry that you have decided to leave the game. It would be great if you would return but the decision is yours. You where not forced to leave and I in no way feel guilty, and I do not think any other member of The Court feels guilty, for you leaving.

Last edited by Sheik on 21-11-2002 at 07:49

	21-11-2002 07:40									#39
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Take a pill GF. Or may I publish your PM to me?

	21-11-2002 07:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Take a pill GF. Or may I publish your PM to me?

There isn't anything in the PM that I didn't post on the forums, but even with my permission publishing a PM is a banning offense on Apolyton. However feel free to forward it to the entire citizenry.

The fact is that you asked me to stay in so you could quickly set a procedure for dealing with ties.

You then used my willingness to assist you to destroy my reputation and lied about working to set a procedure because you have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do so.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither This will be (would have been?) short. At the very least we can tell people what process we would have followed in this case.

Absolutely nothing was to follow. No process was established, and this post was the sole reason I decided to assist the court in establishing a procedure.

In my PM I told nye that they should feel free to give the position to E_T, and that I had already informed Aggie that I thought E_T should be allowed to continue with the DM orders.

However, if it turned out that a large number of votes were disallowed and I had won by a significant margin I felt obligated to fulfill the duties as it would be shirking my civic duty to not do so. I did state that if E_T lost by only a few votes I would have no problem with him continuing with the duties.

There I have publicly described what was in the PM. I am now informing the Moderators of this post so that I can be banned.

	21-11-2002 08:09									#41
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I'm just glad that this is over. If the court only meets once a week, maybe you should think about having a meeting right after the next several elections are completed, in case this happens again.

Never the less, we NEED to address this in the New Con via Admendment, so that the proper proceedures are set up and to be done in a timely manner. I really don't think that the ConCon had thought that we would ever see a tie and/or thought that the courts would work quickly to resolve this kind of thing.

If the courts or other empowered body needs to have approval to get the vote logs from the gOdZ, it should be made part of the laws to allow them access to them, without having to go through a poll first.

If there is the neccesity for this in the future, the courts or other empowered body, NEEDS to make DAILY reports on what they are doing. This will prevent us from thinking that we are mushrooms (i.e. fed s**t and kept in the dark). I certainly thought I was after the 4th day, hence my inquiry.

E_T

	21-11-2002 08:34									#42
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yes E_T, and the problem arises that the tie resulted in an election before the Senate has constituted itself. It was a freak occurance.

However, we made it clear on the 18th that we decided the best way to resolve the issue was to seek the voting list from the g0dz (so we could first tally the votes of registered citizens). Now, because of the unreadiness of the Senate, we had to do that through an "Official Poll'. In future that 3 day wait will not be required if the Senate pass a standing order authorizing us to do so.

Furthermore, the game has not been halted and did not need to be halted. The Constitution provides for the President to continue on. Aggie wisely chose to appoint you his assistant for the DOM portfolio.

Rushing solutions is not always the best course of action. I have seen us do that in this game before. I do not think it is wise if the Court begin the same practice. Suffice to say that a majority of the court felt that the 3 day wait was tolerable. I am sorry if you do not agree.

	21-11-2002 08:37									#43
	Full PM-box? Change here!

... and please keep in mind that Poly was DOWN when we were supposed to meet on Sunday, so we were unable to have the benefit of direct, two way communication. We recovered from that and Sheik launched this poll on the 18th.

	21-11-2002 08:44									#44
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Yes, I was mindfull of all of that. I just want to make sure that these things will be properly addressed in the New Con, for any possiblilities in the future.

Granted, this was only the DM position and Aggie used his executive powers to keep the game going, but what if it had been the Presidential Race, where would we be now? My main concern is for the future. THis may never happen again, but I think we should be prepaired, none the less.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 21-11-2002 at 10:35

	21-11-2002 10:13									#45
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*We interupt this program to bring you a special message from your sponsors *

Yes... It is against the rules to post private messages in these forums without permission of the other party.

However... specific penalities are up to the moderators and we look at each case in it's own light.

I see nothing here that warrants a ban... Just don't do it again.

If either of the involved parties want's to continue this or REALLY does want the other person banned, feel free to contact me via PM and we can discuss it.

Otherwise... Keep on Civin'

*We now return you to your normal programming*

	21-11-2002 10:37									#46
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WOW

A visit by the powerful and merciless Ming...

Last edited by Arnelos on 21-11-2002 at 12:48

	21-11-2002 11:09									#47
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So then, Ghengis. Just to be clear, I have permission to post that PM on this forum?

	21-11-2002 12:38									#48
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As long as he agrees... no problem here

	21-11-2002 16:35									#49
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hi ,

, maybe for next time we should not use PM's , this way the evidence can be taken of the threads , ......

have a nice day

	21-11-2002 16:53									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So then, Ghengis. Just to be clear, I have permission to post that PM on this forum?

Yes, and for the record I didn't want to use PMs. The only reason I PMd nye is because he MADE me do it.

	22-11-2002 00:24									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Yes, and for the record I didn't want to use PMs. The only reason I PMd nye is because he MADE me do it.

hi ,

ahem , did he twist your arm or something , ........?

could this matter be cleared out ones and for all , ...?

have a nice day

	22-11-2002 03:32									#52
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Posted without further comment:

quote: GhengisFarb wrote on 16-11-2002 05:55: quote: notyoueither wrote on 16-11-2002 01:30: We are wondering if you intend to stand behind your concession. That is your right and is somewhat heroic. If however, you wish the court to run it's course in this matter we will. In either case we will post our decision as to how this situation of a tied 2 way race is to be resolved. nye I have thought about this, and there is only one city I would do differently than E_T and that is Ghengistown. Other than that my primary concepts were for setting procedures to name cities, etc. If E_T would be willing to let me control Ghengistown in my own way, with 6 Egyptian workers, and set the naming procedures I would be more than willing to let him control all other cities, worker/settlers and budget. Perhaps I could be Deputy in charge of that one city and naming procedures.

	22-11-2002 04:30									#53
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And behold!

The infamous PM the court has so often referred to where I laid out my plot to take over all Domestic issues and become Emperor of Apolytonia.

Its much more peaceful in exile.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 22-11-2002 at 05:20

	22-11-2002 04:58									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Now, please do not blame GF for this, and do not blame the court. It is GF's right to communicate his intentions with the court. It is the courts responsibility to interpret his public and private communications. That is being done.

	22-11-2002 05:38									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: You then used my willingness to assist you to destroy my reputation and lied about working to set a procedure because you have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do so.

GhengisFarb you know nothing regarding what The Court has done to set up a procedure for future ties.

I will let you know that we are working on a solution and are taking it very seriously. I know that we will have a solution once The Senate is established.

	22-11-2002 05:43									#56
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quote: You then used my willingness to assist you to destroy my reputation.

Personally:

I do not believe that your reputation has been heavily damaged and if any damage has been done to your reputation it was done as a result of your actions, not The Court's.

	22-11-2002 06:39									#57
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I really don't think that the ConCon had thought that we would ever see a tie and/or thought that the courts would work quickly to resolve this kind of thing.

We were more focused on the Trip v. Ninot election and the abundance of questionable votes. But we did put in that The Court would resolve ties...

Personally, I just thought they'd flip a coin, Rock-Paper-Scissor, or do a vote amongst themselves (5 members) to break the tie.

I have a couple of solution ideas/amendments already, but I'm going to wait and see if The Court has already made a solution before I post anything.

--Togas

	22-11-2002 07:49									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We were more focused on the Trip v. Ninot election and the abundance of questionable votes. But we did put in that The Court would resolve ties... Personally, I just thought they'd flip a coin, Rock-Paper-Scissor, or do a vote amongst themselves (5 members) to break the tie. I have a couple of solution ideas/amendments already, but I'm going to wait and see if The Court has already made a solution before I post anything. --Togas

It sounds like the NewCon has given the Court WAAAAYYY to much leeway on their options... Even if the Court came up with a precedent, I wouldn't be comfortable with the fact that there's really nothing to stop a future Court from violating that precedent and establishing their own (even with the general respect of Common Law concepts by the Court, this is not legally established anywhere I know of). I'd be far more comfortable if a way to handle ties was [Iexplicitly[/I] handled in the constitution... so, IMO, Togas go ahead and present whatever you have if you have it (please!). If not, I'm sure the rest of us will dig something up as well.

	22-11-2002 09:00									#59
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I agree with Arnelos, the proceedure should be set in stone.

E_T

	22-11-2002 09:12									#60
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My intitial and current belief is that such a tie could be considered under the rule that says if nobody gets 50% we have a runoff. It is very likley that the 2nd vote could be different, but we would have to establish rules for a tie on the runoff vote. One suggestion is that either the senate votes or the seated minister+pres vote(the reason for not the vp vote is that since the Pres appoints the VP, it could lead to a situation where the pres would appoint the vp to vote down a candidate). Since the senate has 4 less votes than the population as a whole(the 3 ministers/vp/pres) the vote could be tied. With the ministers with only 3 people the vote here wouldn't be tied. Just some ideas. Do you all want me to post a thread called"Preadmendment discussion on election ties" and top it or do you want the discussion to be left in the thread.
Aggie