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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozz
What puzzles me is that people think it was an "accident". The exiting PM's communications advisor "accidently" calls Bush a "moron" in front of a reporter? Right.....
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Yup, chalk up another small political victory for Chretien while the Conservatives/CA shoot themselves in the foot and Bush comes off looking dignified for once.
Bush goes to the NATO meeting and criticizes Canada indirectly for not spending enough money on the Forces (and rightly so).
Ozz is probably right that the Liberals set up the whole moron comment to jab back at Bush.
The spokeswoman was set to move to a new post, so her resignation doesn’t really make a difference. By not accepting her first resignation letter, Chretien looks like a loyal employer. By accepting the second resignation letter, Chretien can do the old “Well, if you really insist on leaving…”
Consider a Globe report about the resignation: “"She pushed it, and she insisted on it," a senior government official said. "It's something he [the Prime Minister] hates to do and something he did reluctantly."
So Chretien comes out smelling like roses. He manages to insult Bush, without actually insulting him. He looks like a nice boss. The Canadian government comes off looking like it has some backbone and that it is not a sniveling partner to the US. And attention is deflected away from the serious issues of the Liberal’s lack of funding for the Forces and the Kyoto agreement.
The Conservatives/CA end up looking like idiots by making a big deal out of nothing. More than that they come off looking spineless with their crying concern that Canada should rush out, apologize and kiss Bush’s butt.
Bush, meanwhile, takes the high road by ignoring the comment.
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Faboba
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Scotland. I can't be more specific else they'll find me.
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Clinton meanwhile never won a majority of the vote in the two elections that he won. The only majority that counts in the presidential election is a majority of the electoral college votes. Everyone knows this going into the election, and it has a huge impact on the way everyone's campaign is plotted. |
I don't give a squirrel-****ging ferret what Clinton won by, CyberShu claimed that 'the majority supported him'. What I was pointing out is that he didn't have the majority. I'm not one of these people that thinks that in itself is enough to deny him the presidency byt you cannot say that the man has the majoirty support of the country when he statistically does not.
Well you CAN, but you'd be WRONG.
quote:
Would you like to supply some proof that Jeb Bush fixed the election for George Bush? If there is enough then both of them could be run out of office, which I'm sure would please you. So why not set the wheels in motion? |
You think if there was hard evidence he'd be in office still?
But how's about this for circumstantial evidence ( and while I'm at it notyoueither, shut the hell up. I can't have you dismissing what I'm saying with a wave of your hand in one ear and Cybershy complaining about 'leftish' people not respecting the opinions of others. )
* Thousands of convicted felons and PEOPLE WHO HAD SIMILAR NAMES to convicted felons ( including the electoral supervisor for madison county ) were not allowed to vote. Most of these individuals came from predominantly democratic-supporting black and hispanic backgrounds. This included 8,000 on a false list supplied by another state which claimed they were 'former convicted felons who had since moved to Florida'. The state which supplied the list was... Texas.
*Before the counting was finished and it was too close to call the winner ( though it must be mentioned at the time Gore was slightly ahead ) the head of Fox's election coverage made the decision to go on air and announce that Bush had won Florida and consequently the election. The head of Fox's coverage is the first cousin of Bush, John Ellis. Most the other networks quickly followed suit and soon Bush was declared the winner despite not actually having won anything.
* An investigation by the New York Times concluded that of the 2,490 overseas votes which were finally counted, 680 were considered flawed and questionable. This included 544 of Bush slips which cuts Bush's winning margin of 537 to a negative 7 in favour of Gore. I can go into further detail here if you wish.
* The Supreme Court ( in which many of the members had good reason to strongly desire a Republican victory including two who were hoping to retire and have an ideologically similar candidate appointed to replace them ) cancelled the recount when the statistics showed that Gore was "only 66 votes down, and gaining!". The Court concluded;
"The counting of votes which are of questionable legality does, in my view, threaten irreprable harm to [Bush], and to the country, by casting a cloud on what [Bush] claims to be the legitimacy of his election." - In other words if they counted all the ballots which were questionable rather than just the overseas ones in favour of Bush there was no way in hell it would come out in his favour and therefore put a dampour on his election celebrations.
Personally I found the weirdest part of the whole episode to be when Bush, with tens of thousands of votes still to be counted, informed Gore that his brother Jeb has assured him that 'the state was his'. Now... how would the brother be able to assure him if he didn't know that these very... questionable goings on listed above were happening and costing Gore votes - nearly enough to lose the election in fact? The obvious answer is that he did know, he knew full well as did his brother, now President-Elect George W Bush of the United States of America who had provided Jeb with a list of Florida citizens to take of the voting rosta.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:23
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Tingkai, politicians are NOT that smart. I can't believe Chretien set all that up. Probably what happened is the person that made the remark realized that she'd be moving jobs soon and could shoot her mouth off.
quote:
you cannot say that the man has the majoirty support of the country when he statistically does not. |
Actually he does. Check the polls, he has at least a 60% approval rating. That is a majority of support.
quote:
Thousands of convicted felons and PEOPLE WHO HAD SIMILAR NAMES to convicted felons ( including the electoral supervisor for madison county ) were not allowed to vote. Most of these individuals came from predominantly democratic-supporting black and hispanic backgrounds. This included 8,000 on a false list supplied by another state which claimed they were 'former convicted felons who had since moved to Florida'. The state which supplied the list was... Texas. |
The list was supplied by a private non-partisan company.
quote:
Before the counting was finished and it was too close to call the winner ( though it must be mentioned at the time Gore was slightly ahead ) the head of Fox's election coverage made the decision to go on air and announce that Bush had won Florida and consequently the election. The head of Fox's coverage is the first cousin of Bush, John Ellis. Most the other networks quickly followed suit and soon Bush was declared the winner despite not actually having won anything. |
How is this fixing the election? And CNN declared Bush the winner first, btw. I was watching TV that night and switching between news networks.
quote:
An investigation by the New York Times concluded that of the 2,490 overseas votes which were finally counted, 680 were considered flawed and questionable. This included 544 of Bush slips which cuts Bush's winning margin of 537 to a negative 7 in favour of Gore. I can go into further detail here if you wish. |
Please do, because the NYTimes said that Bush won the election in its recount.
quote:
The Supreme Court ( in which many of the members had good reason to strongly desire a Republican victory including two who were hoping to retire and have an ideologically similar candidate appointed to replace them ) cancelled the recount when the statistics showed that Gore was "only 66 votes down, and gaining!". The Court concluded;
"The counting of votes which are of questionable legality does, in my view, threaten irreprable harm to [Bush], and to the country, by casting a cloud on what [Bush] claims to be the legitimacy of his election." - In other words if they counted all the ballots which were questionable rather than just the overseas ones in favour of Bush there was no way in hell it would come out in his favour and therefore put a dampour on his election celebrations. |
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit! The SC did not stop the recount because it would be detrimental to Bush's celebration! It stopped it because the recount was being done differently in every county thus depriving people in different counties of equal protection.
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Faboba
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Scotland. I can't be more specific else they'll find me.
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
you cannot say that the man has the majoirty support of the country when he statistically does not. |
Actually he does. Check the polls, he has at least a 60% approval rating. That is a majority of support.[QUOTE]
Oh and polls are always accurate are they? I want election figures. If they like him that much they can go out and actively vote for him.
[QUOTE]quote:
Thousands of convicted felons and PEOPLE WHO HAD SIMILAR NAMES to convicted felons ( including the electoral supervisor for madison county ) were not allowed to vote. Most of these individuals came from predominantly democratic-supporting black and hispanic backgrounds. This included 8,000 on a false list supplied by another state which claimed they were 'former convicted felons who had since moved to Florida'. The state which supplied the list was... Texas. |
The list was supplied by a private non-partisan company. |
It still came from Texas.
quote:
quote:
Before the counting was finished and it was too close to call the winner ( though it must be mentioned at the time Gore was slightly ahead ) the head of Fox's election coverage made the decision to go on air and announce that Bush had won Florida and consequently the election. The head of Fox's coverage is the first cousin of Bush, John Ellis. Most the other networks quickly followed suit and soon Bush was declared the winner despite not actually having won anything. |
How is this fixing the election? And CNN declared Bush the winner first, btw. I was watching TV that night and switching between news networks. |
Well not having American TV I can't comment but I'm told it was Fox first and if so you don't think that would represent a major conflict of interest? A national network whose coverage was being run by one of the candidates cousins decided out of the blue to announce that his relative had won even though the reality was different?
quote:
quote:
An investigation by the New York Times concluded that of the 2,490 overseas votes which were finally counted, 680 were considered flawed and questionable. This included 544 of Bush slips which cuts Bush's winning margin of 537 to a negative 7 in favour of Gore. I can go into further detail here if you wish. |
Please do, because the NYTimes said that Bush won the election in its recount. |
I was referring to detail about the overseas ballots as supplied by the Times. To whit;
* 344 ballots had no evidence that they were cast on election day.
* 183 ballots were postmarked in the US.
* 96 ballots lack appropriate witness information.
* 169 ballots came from unregistered voters, had envelopes which weren't signed correctly or came from people who hadn't requested a ballot.
* 5 ballots came in after the deadline.
* 19 overseas voters voted on two ballots... and had both counted.
quote:
quote:
The Supreme Court ( in which many of the members had good reason to strongly desire a Republican victory including two who were hoping to retire and have an ideologically similar candidate appointed to replace them ) cancelled the recount when the statistics showed that Gore was "only 66 votes down, and gaining!". The Court concluded;
"The counting of votes which are of questionable legality does, in my view, threaten irreprable harm to [Bush], and to the country, by casting a cloud on what [Bush] claims to be the legitimacy of his election." - In other words if they counted all the ballots which were questionable rather than just the overseas ones in favour of Bush there was no way in hell it would come out in his favour and therefore put a dampour on his election celebrations. |
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit! The SC did not stop the recount because it would be detrimental to Bush's celebration! It stopped it because the recount was being done differently in every county thus depriving people in different counties of equal protection. |
Listen, the bit in inverted commas comes from Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. I suggest you take it up with him.
The main point is however, and feel we've wandered away from it, even if there is no specific HARD evidence ( these people aren't stupid after all ) there is still enough in the way of rather odd things going on to give raise to suspicion. You don't think any of it smells a little off?
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Tingkai, politicians are NOT that smart. I can't believe Chretien set all that up. Probably what happened is the person that made the remark realized that she'd be moving jobs soon and could shoot her mouth off.
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We'll probably never know what actually happened, but Chretien is a smart politician (albeit one with any political vision other than staying in power). He's been near or at the top of political power for most of his 30-odd-year career.
Accident or planned, he won this political skirmish.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Faboba
Well not having American TV I can't comment but I'm told it was Fox first and if so you don't think that would represent a major conflict of interest? A national network whose coverage was being run by one of the candidates cousins decided out of the blue to announce that his relative had won even though the reality was different? |
The real scandal was when most of the major networks declared Florida for Gore before the polls in Western Florida had closed. This has the effect of depressing turnout amongst those who think their side has lost the election (ie Republicans in this case). Western Florida is the strongest Republican area in the state btw.
Fox (and later the other networks) declared Bush the winner many hours after the polls had closed. They later admitted that the election was too close to call, not wanting to further compound their streak of erroneous reporting. Bush can only have lost votes based upon this series of events, and cannot have gained anything from a declaration of victory after the polls were closed.
quote:
Originally posted by Faboba
The main point is however, and feel we've wandered away from it, even if there is no specific HARD evidence ( these people aren't stupid after all ) there is still enough in the way of rather odd things going on to give raise to suspicion. You don't think any of it smells a little off? |
This is a lot weaker than your charge in a previous post:
"Bush's rule is undemocratic in the sense that he fixed ( or rather had his brother Jeb whose campaign he funded fix on his behalf ) the florida election thus securing him 25 electoral college votes and thus, the election."
Both sides sought to get maximum advantage in order to secure Florida. I'm sure Jeb Bush regrets telling George Bush that Florida was 'in the bag' and both regret George Bush telling the Gore camp what Jeb had said, as events soon proved that the election wasn't anything but a statistical tie with the result hanging like chad in the wind.
Both sides early on ironically sought judicial remedies that would have meant victory for the other side (as it turned out). Friendly election officials on both sides let some things slide. The Democrat controlled Florida Supreme Court ordered a recount that was favorable to Gore, and the Republican majority of the U.S. Supreme Court squelched it. It was neither side's finest hour, but to be fair this election was so close that the winner had to rely entirely on how the vote was counted. Either candidate could have won the election had the methods used been altered. Neither candidate had enough information to act completely intelligently, otherwise each side would have acquiesed to the other side's losing criteria when the chance presented itself.
If they were crooked enough to fix the election, and skillful enough to avoid being caught, why weren't they skillful enough to create a margin of victory that avoided recounts and controversy that might undo their plot?
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Ozz
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Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
30-odd-year career. |
Have you ever noticed how many people DO things just before they walk out the door? I'm sure JC is capable of pulling off this simple and petty plan. I'm also sure Kyoto was approved for the same reason, i don't think Chretien would have committed if he was starting his first term and was looking forward to 2 or 3 more.
Chretien may approve Kyoto, but it's somebody else's problem making it work.
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Ozz
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Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Faboba
You don't think any of it smells a little off? |
Seeing their was so much doubt and the results so close you should have settled it by trial by combat. Medievil maybe, entertaining for sure. Definiitly would have ended this debate.
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One_Brow
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Clinton meanwhile never won a majority of the vote in the two elections that he won. The only majority that counts in the presidential election is a majority of the electoral college votes. Everyone knows this going into the election, and it has a huge impact on the way everyone's campaign is plotted. |
In both elections Clintn had a plurality (more votes than any other candidate) In fact, I had thought he had a genuine majority in 1996.
In 2000, Bush had fewer votes than Gore, no matter how you slice up Florida. This does not invalidate his election, bt it's no much of a mandate.
The recent Congressional elections were a definate, minor victory. Itwould be extreme to say they were not a victory, but equally extreme to say they showed any type of major publc support for the Repblicans as opposed to the Democrats.
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28-11-2002 12:44
The word got around quick enough for a "private" conservation at a public function in a room full of reporters.
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