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ducki
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What's the cost difference between Infantry and Guerilla?
Is there a certain cut-off point where the AI will build Infantry instead? Like if it's a 2-turn vs. 3-turn build?
Is there any difference in build prefs depending on city size?(I guess this would tie into the time-cost for the build)
There must be something that we're just not seeing that's causing this. Is there any advantage to guerillas at all? Time-to-build, cost-to-build, movement, anything?
me = intrigued
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Dominae
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Infantry and Guerilla both cost 90 Shields and are both available with Replaceable Parts.
Infantry stats are 6/10/1 in stock Civ3, 8/10/1 in the AU mod; Guerilla are 6/6/1 in stock Civ3. For some reason that I can't remember, the AU mod stats of Guerilla were changed to 7/6/1.
Infantry require Rubber to build, Guerilla do not. Only the "defender" path upgrades to Infantry (Spearmen, Pikemen, Riflemen). Most things that didn't upgrade in stock Civ3 now upgrade to Guerilla in PTW (a notable exception is Cavalry).
All this to say that, with access to Rubber, there is no reason to build Guerilla instead of Infantry. You could still have Guerillas kicking around if you've upgraded to them, though.
Dominae
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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
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Jaybe, Guerillas and Infantry are both offensive and defensive units to the AI.
Wild guess: When the AI needs a unit, it evaluates all the possible units it can build for that purpose, and chooses one. If it already has many of that type, it might choose a less effective one, because if the AI always built the best unit according to its evaluation, it would end up being unbalanced or at least predictable.
Example: Horsemen versus Swordsmen for offense. Which to build? The AI builds both of them, but it's very unlikely that they are both evaluated to be exactly equal. Another example is Marines versus Tanks. The AI builds tanks for offense most of the time, but sometimes builds Marines (presumably when it has enough tanks already). So with Guerillas, it thinks there might be some reason (not coded in its evaluation) to have them at the same time as Infantry, so it builds them just in case. It doesn't build very many though, just as it doesn't build very many Paratroopers over tanks.
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Dominae
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I like all the changes, alexman. Perhaps we could also change the Guerilla's Attack back to 6 (or maybe push it up to 8?).
Dominae
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Fosse
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U.S.A.
Mar 2002
time: 23:24
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I really don't like the idea of upgrading geurillas to infantry. I like their role as an end upgrade path for warriors and archers, that can be used with limited results in an offensive or defensive role.
Infantry with geurillas side by side never bothered me. I saw it as partisans cooperating with regular forces, like the French resistance in WWII.
Also... since drafting makes either riflemen or infantry... there would be an odd situation where you would have no rubber, and draft rifles even though geurillas are the units of choice. (okay, I know...easily fixed)
But if it's the only way to get the AI to stop building them over infantry... then it's the only way.
Question though... I seem to recall that ages ago in this (or the Poor AI) forum it was discovered that the AI simply builds whatever unit comes latest on the build list. Someone tested this by creating a dummy warrior that the AI would build in the modern ages.
If this is actually the reason... couldn't we rename the geurilla unit "infantry" and the infantry unit "Guerilla" and then just switch their stats and Civilopedia information?
There would be no change to the units and gameplay, only the build list.
Then Infantry would be later on the list than Geurillas...
Would that actually work?
I'm a fan of the ROF changes you suggested as well. Deviating from stock isn't ideal... but when stock is severly broken... it's worth testing for an iteration, anyway.
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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Fosse
since drafting makes either riflemen or infantry... there would be an odd situation where you would have no rubber, and draft rifles even though geurillas are the units of choice. (okay, I know...easily fixed)
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Actually, I believe Guerillas are already listed as a draft unit, so you would never draft riflemen if you have Rep. Parts. Good thinking though!
quote:
I seem to recall that ages ago in this (or the Poor AI) forum it was discovered that the AI simply builds whatever unit comes latest on the build list. Someone tested this by creating a dummy warrior that the AI would build in the modern ages.
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It was me, and it was a bad experiment because I had defensive units as build-never (to force the AI to build an offensive unit in its first turn), and the AI gets confused when you select things as build-never.
Just to be clear, Guerillas are built under stock rules, but not nearly as often as Infantry. The AI makes the right choice most of the time, but throws a Guerilla in the build queue now and then.
Dominae, I know your bias against odd attack strengths. 
I think we should give Guerillas +2 attack then, to match the changes in Infantry, Paratroopers, and Marines.
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BRC
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quote:
It doesn't build very many though, just as it doesn't build very many Paratroopers over tanks. |
I agree that the AI should not build Guerrillas when it can build Infantry. No doubt. But I am having a hard time with the Swordsman and Spearman upgrade paths converging. Is that really the only way for us to fix that??
All the rest I like, but I don't really feel as if this change helps the AI enough to justify it. I understand how it makes sense from a historical point of view. I like the idea. I just don't care much for the solution.
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I don't see how it would affect strategy (I doubt one would build more swordsmen or Med. Infantry instead of knights because of this), it helps the AI, it is historically more correct, and it eliminates useless items from the build list. |
I really think that Firaxis should have thought harder about the Medievil Infantry and the Guerrilla, but there is nothing we can do now. I agree with you that this probably won't change strategy. I have heard some interesting way of changing the Guerilla so that it would serve a purpose. Movement of 2, treating all terrain as grassland, etc. would be a more effective solution IMO. I do realize that this does change the game more, which is not something I really want to do. However, I would rather find a way to incorporate the Guerrilla into the game rather than try to abandon it when you control rubber. Thanks. Sorry.
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Dominae
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Thought I'd just throw out some ideas for helping the Guerilla unit (for AI purposes, mostly):
1. Remove "Requires Support" flag.
This makes the unit slightly better in the AIs hands. The potential downfall is that the human player could conceivably exploit this (for example, by fielding huge armies at low cost when in representative governments). The situation gets worse when you consider that you can Draft Guerillas. But, Guerillas still suck compared to Infantry (lower Attack and Defense, same cost).
2. Add zero-range Bombard ability
Just like we did with Archers and Longbowmen (and their UU counterparts). This helps the AI, since it always seems to have a couple of Guerillas just "hanging out" in a stack of units, where Infantry usually attack and defend first.
3. Add "Ignores Movement Cost" for Forest, Jungle
This change deviates from stock Civ3 significantly, but it's still not that interesting. The AI and the human player would make pretty good use of this ability, but those terrain types are largely gone in the Industrial age. Maybe the Guerilla could ignore movement cost in Hills...
4. Reduce cost of Guerilla to 8
Self-explanatory. Again, I think, uninteresting.
That's all I can think of for now. alexman's solution (Guerilla->Infantry upgrade) is a good one, but ideally Guerillas should serve a more important function. What would be really great is if we could tell the AI not to build the stupid things when it has Rubber available.
Dominae
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Nor Me
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quote:
Originally posted by alexman
Wild guess: When the AI needs a unit, it evaluates all the possible units it can build for that purpose, and chooses one. If it already has many of that type, it might choose a less effective one, because if the AI always built the best unit according to its evaluation, it would end up being unbalanced or at least predictable.
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Are you sure there isn't a random factor?
I did a few tests for what the governor suggested building in the first city in 1.29f.
Two equal units were built equally often.
Making one unit amphibious appeared to make it be built more often but not always.
Of course then giving one unit an operational range made it appear to always be built so somethings changed.
Last edited by Nor Me on 18-12-2002 at 05:01
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Nor Me
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
3. Add "Ignores Movement Cost" for Forest, Jungle
This change deviates from stock Civ3 significantly, but it's still not that interesting. The AI and the human player would make pretty good use of this ability, but those terrain types are largely gone in the Industrial age. Maybe the Guerilla could ignore movement cost in Hills...
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I may be supid but what difference does this make?
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Nor Me
I may be supid but what difference does this make? |
Nay, sir, it is I that is stupid. With only 1 movement point, Guerillas can't really take advantage of reduced movement costs of terrain. Sorry, bad suggestion on my part.
Dominae
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BRC
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quote:
1. Remove "Requires Support" flag. |
Exploitable.
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2. Add zero-range Bombard ability |
It would keep with the flavor of the mod.
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3. Add "Ignores Movement Cost" for Forest, Jungle |
I was wondering about this too, just with Hills, or Mountains.... also.
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4. Reduce cost of Guerilla to 8 |
You're right. Boring.
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alexman's solution (Guerilla->Infantry upgrade) is a good one |
It is good. I just would like to see something else.
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but ideally Guerillas should serve a more important function |
I think that Guerrillas could be made to pull off some great strategic attack. The marines can attack cities directly from ships. This does give them use, even if it's limited. I envision a similiar use for Guerrillas. Sneaking through the jungle, hills, or whatever to lay seige on a city.
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BRC
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quote:
I may be supid but what difference does this make? |
My fault too. What about with 2 movement points???
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Dominae
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Actually I like the Guerilla unit as is. I just don't like that the AI builds it when its not supposed to. My suggestions are just in hopes of reducing this weakness.
Come to think of it, here's another possibility:
5. Give Guerillas 1 bonus HP.
Again, slightly reduces the uselessness of Guerilla when Infantry are available.
Dominae
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BRC
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quote:
5. Give Guerillas 1 bonus HP. |
Without getting into anything, I would prefer the upgrade solution to anything that involved playing with HP's. Just my opinion.
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BRC
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quote:
This is my favorite, especially since Guerillas are in the Archer-Longbowman upgrade path, who have this ability. It would definitely give Guerillas a distinct functionality without changing the game too much. |
I'm for this here. Let's do the bombard thing. That seems to me the best way to do it. Keep Guerrillas "in the game", and have a little fun with them.
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17-12-2002 20:53
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