13-12-2002 08:14									#31
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Technically it is not bad, and it is definitely better than GameSpy. Not only because of technical issues, but also because you have a better chance to find "good" playing partners (whatever "good" means to you) here on Apolyton than in the GameSpy lobby.

However, I would be very cautious when answering the question "Is this a good way to play?" Since you are playing Spencer's PBEM as well, I thought I would mention that overall, my best MP experience seems to be that game so far. I think we are extremly lucky that we got 4 reliable people there, and on average it is probably difficult to achieve via PBEM what we did (that is, 2270BC in about 3 weeks). In contrast, we got to 1500AD after 4-5 intensive sessions in this direct IP game, which is an advantage. However, the operative word here is really intensive. I think in the later ages I would prefer more time to think, especially if there were more serious conflicts than what we had so far.

I also have some doubts about what would happen in a Direct IP game if we had, say, 4 humans and we wanted to have some serious diplomacy. To give a vivid example, you would have to stay online and wait there while I am discussing with my allies how we will kick your ass. Whereas in PBEM the most you would notice is that the SAV arrives 12-24 hours later than usual.

All in all I think Spencer summed it up very well in his signature: we would need the option to switch between PBEM and online gaming. We could go through the first, boring period (or maybe later boring periods as well) using Direct IP and play by email when there are more decisions to make.

	13-12-2002 20:34									#32
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Personally I find that PBEM is way too slow. How long does it take you guys to actually finish a game?
delmar to address your concern with diplomacy taking too long. the simple solution would be to implement a turn timer.
To me online (real-time) and PBEM are 2 very different ways of playing, I would not want to be in a ganme where it is switched back and forth between the two formats. Of course I will never be in this position as I never play PBEM. Players need to keep in mind that MPs is different than SP, if you are looking for an experience that is closest to SP then PBEM might be the best way to go.
The biggest problem I have had is finding good players. Whether the game is on Gamespy or not (direct IP) doesnt make a big difference to meas far as the ctual game goes.

	13-12-2002 23:15									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Acemo Personally I find that PBEM is way too slow. How long does it take you guys to actually finish a game?

If it goes to the late industrial age, and if we are lucky, then I would say about a year.

quote: delmar to address your concern with diplomacy taking too long. the simple solution would be to implement a turn timer.

I would like to have time for diplomacy (and for other things). Implementing a turn timer would make things worse in this regard.

quote: To me online (real-time) and PBEM are 2 very different ways of playing, I would not want to be in a ganme where it is switched back and forth between the two formats. Of course I will never be in this position as I never play PBEM. Players need to keep in mind that MPs is different than SP, if you are looking for an experience that is closest to SP then PBEM might be the best way to go.

I pretty much agree with this assesment. Unfortunately the main difference I can see (besides the time it takes to finish a game) between online MP games and PBEM/SP games is that the former encourages a militaristic playing style, simply because there are way too many things to take care of if you want a reasonably sized, well developed empire. Perhaps I just need to develop some techniques that are specific to oline gaming and that would allow me to develop and execute plans almost like in SP/PBEM games, but I doubt it. The case of diplomacy seems particularly problematic to me.

Even a sophisticated military scenario seems questionable in online games as fighting on 2 or God forbid 3 fronts appears to be pretty hopeless.

One thought that crossed my mind is that assigning people to teams in advance might help a bit. Like if we had 4 humans, A, B, C, and D, we could agree well before starting the game that A and B always work together and so do C and D. So that the teams could work out a strategy before we start. As I never tried this, this is pure theory, of course.

quote: The biggest problem I have had is finding good players.

Do you have a theory as to why this is the case?

	14-12-2002 01:51									#34
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quote: Originally posted by delmar If it goes to the late industrial age, and if we are lucky, then I would say about a year.

ZOUNDS!

quote: The case of diplomacy seems particularly problematic to me.

One thing that helps me is voice chat. It allows me to play the game and talk to players at the same time. Agreements can be made ahead of time and then just the treaties signed in-game

quote: Even a sophisticated military scenario seems questionable in online games as fighting on 2 or God forbid 3 fronts appears to be pretty hopeless.

2 front wars should be almost impossible IMHO. Just like in real-life.

quote: One thought that crossed my mind is that assigning people to teams in advance might help a bit. Like if we had 4 humans, A, B, C, and D, we could agree well before starting the game that A and B always work together and so do C and D. So that the teams could work out a strategy before we start. As I never tried this, this is pure theory, of course.

I have thought about this idea also, but unless the games rules allow cooperative play, I don't think this will work as intended.

quote: Do you have a theory as to why this is the case?

I hope it is because the (MP) game is still kind of new. I am hoping that soon only the hardcore players will remain. I think they are better behaved players. Maybe someone needs to write up some etiquette rules for MP.

	14-12-2002 03:37									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Acemo One thing that helps me is voice chat. It allows me to play the game and talk to players at the same time. Agreements can be made ahead of time and then just the treaties signed in-game

Can you select who hears you? Just like for the written messages? I might dig out that microphone after all...

quote: 2 front wars should be almost impossible IMHO. Just like in real-life.

They are very well possible in real life, it's just hard to win them. But not because one person needs to be at 2 different places at the same time.

Also I think you assumed 1 enemy per front line. We could have multiple fronts between 2 countries. I don't think that a single stream of units is the most clever tactic that someone could possibly think up, but in an online game I don't think I would risk to attack at two or more points because it is just unmanagable.

quote: I hope it is because the (MP) game is still kind of new. I am hoping that soon only the hardcore players will remain. I think they are better behaved players. Maybe someone needs to write up some etiquette rules for MP.

Might be a good idea. I think I saw something like this in another thread already. One of the points was "don't download stuff while playing."

I didn't have any bad experience with the RL behaviour of the players (I played only two online games so far) so I was more concerned about that difference between SP and MP playing style that you also alluded to. I am afraid that people who were among the best Civ players (in terms of winning chances) will find it difficult to adopt to the online gaming environment. I think I for one am a better player in a PBEM game than in an online game. For example, I never automated my workers before, unless I had an almost perfect railroad system, and I made sure that all my workers are working on connecting all the cities to the railroad backbone when the time came. In our game, I just started to push Shift+A after a while because I didn't want to hold you guys up any more. It wasn't too bad, because most of the workers got the point and worked on railroad, but some of them sure enough jumped on the plain vanilla unimproved mountains that were not used by any city and started to build road/mine there. I would have been a bit upset if I couldn't have prevented an invasion because some workers were improving useless mountains instead of building the critical railroad system.

	14-12-2002 05:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by delmar Can you select who hears you? Just like for the written messages? I might dig out that microphone after all...

yes, one can select who hears voice chat, it is the exact same interface as text chat in fact. I encourage everyone to get voice chat working, it adds more to the game than you would think.

quote: They are very well possible in real life, it's just hard to win them. But not because one person needs to be at 2 different places at the same time. Also I think you assumed 1 enemy per front line. We could have multiple fronts between 2 countries. I don't think that a single stream of units is the most clever tactic that someone could possibly think up, but in an online game I don't think I would risk to attack at two or more points because it is just unmanagable.

I have attacked at multiple points at once, it is clumsy, but doable. Not be be a jerk, but i did think you were waging wars like this all along. I thought that is why your turns were taking so much longer than mine and nye's. Of course workers (see below) may have had quite a bit to do with it as well.

quote: Might be a good idea. I think I saw something like this in another thread already. One of the points was "don't download stuff while playing."

maybe this does need done then.
don't quit the game if resources are lacking, or if a city is lost (unless elimination game ) are two more I can think of right now

quote: I didn't have any bad experience with the RL behaviour of the players (I played only two online games so far) so I was more concerned about that difference between SP and MP playing style that you also alluded to. I am afraid that people who were among the best Civ players (in terms of winning chances) will find it difficult to adopt to the online gaming environment. I think I for one am a better player in a PBEM game than in an online game. For example, I never automated my workers before, unless I had an almost perfect railroad system, and I made sure that all my workers are working on connecting all the cities to the railroad backbone when the time came. In our game, I just started to push Shift+A after a while because I didn't want to hold you guys up any more. It wasn't too bad, because most of the workers got the point and worked on railroad, but some of them sure enough jumped on the plain vanilla unimproved mountains that were not used by any city and started to build road/mine there. I would have been a bit upset if I couldn't have prevented an invasion because some workers were improving useless mountains instead of building the critical railroad system.

I had a lot of people quit on me early on and when the game became oos, I couldn't get games loaded.
Automating workers is a timesaver no doubt. I had already had all my workers automated for some time, berfore you said that you automated yours. Maybe it is just because I am lazy, but once I get more than 20 or so workers, I put almost all of them on Shift-A. I keep a few around for "special projects", and it also matters to me how my territory is laid out. In our game I am on a continent by myself, so my workers became automated sooner than they would have if I had enemies close.
Do you use governors to control happiness, or do you manually control all citizen production too?

	14-12-2002 07:34									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Acemo Not be be a jerk, but i did think you were waging wars like this all along. I thought that is why your turns were taking so much longer than mine and nye's.

You can (and to a certain limit, I did) do this against the AI because it makes all its moves at once within the turn. But I don't think that this alone slowed me down a lot. I think the main factors are:

- Managing workers
- Managing city tile assignment
- Checking what cities are producing (typical answer: longbowmen )
- Battles -- I think this is a bug, individual battles take like 10-15 seconds to finish when I have "Animate battles" turned off.

quote: it also matters to me how my territory is laid out. In our game I am on a continent by myself

And also the shape of that continent matters a lot, I think. You and NYE have pretty nice "round" continents, almost optimal from a defense point of view. Mine is a lot more "complicated". Had I automated many of my workers early on, I probably still wouldn't have a decent railroad system.

quote: Do you use governors to control happiness, or do you manually control all citizen production too?

Not in all cities, but yes, sometimes I do assign tiles to cities manually. Not for happiness as such, but for optimal production. And this is another thing that I did far less often in our game than I would like to.

	14-12-2002 08:10									#38
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Btw, are we going to play tonight? I am online.

Acemo, I found my microphone. I tested it and the quality seems to be terrible but we can give it a try if you want to.

Also, if you can suggest a modestly priced, good quality brand, I might make an investment. Especially if it's a phone+microphone combo that I could use with my phone as well.

	14-12-2002 08:17									#39
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anyway I can play direct connect?

I was on tonight (The first time since before thanksgiving) and I only got the game started nce

I think I have an issue with hosting or something

Jon Miller

	14-12-2002 08:26									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller anyway I can play direct connect?

If this is a technical question, then the only way to find it out is to try it.

If you are asking whether you can play with us, then the answer is "not right now" as we have a game that we want to continue. When we are done with this one, we will probably start another one with at least one more person. If you are interested, I can ping you when the time comes.

	14-12-2002 08:48									#41
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I am looking to play someone direct connect

I thought this was a direct connerct thread (people setting up direct connect games)

Jon Miller

	14-12-2002 09:15									#42
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quote: Originally posted by delmar Btw, are we going to play tonight? I am online.

I thought that nye wasn't available tonight. If you want we can try a new game with Jon Miller. I just got home, but I can be ready to go in 30-45 mins (around midnight eastern time)

quote: Acemo, I found my microphone. I tested it and the quality seems to be terrible but we can give it a try if you want to. Also, if you can suggest a modestly priced, good quality brand, I might make an investment. Especially if it's a phone+microphone combo that I could use with my phone as well.

Lets try it and see how it works, I bought a microphone for $20-$30 it seems to work a little better than the one that came with my sound card. what i really like about it is it is a boom mike, it sits right in front of my mouth, I don't have to move to be in front of it. I think that as many problems are caused by people too close to their mikes as to poor quality microphones.

	14-12-2002 10:06									#43
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Yeah, I'm out for tonight and Sunday too.

My brother and nephews arrive tonight. Sunday we are travelling to see some other family. Wed will my next available date.

	15-12-2002 08:06									#44
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OK, no problem. Somehow I missed this information earlier.

I am tempted to start a new game to fill the hole but I think it would be better to finish this game before I get involved in another one. As my PBEM games take off, I start to find it difficult to keep track of all the games I am participating in.

Also, I hope we can have at least 4 humans in our next game.

	18-12-2002 22:18									#45
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Acemo, NYE, are we going to play today? 10pm EST?

	18-12-2002 22:31									#46
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I am available for 10:00.
Nye, how about you?

	18-12-2002 23:04									#47
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I'll be here/there/somewhere...

	23-12-2002 03:24									#48
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How about today, guys? 10pm EST?

	23-12-2002 03:26									#49
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Good for me.

	23-12-2002 05:28									#50
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ok by me, but i can only play for 2 hours tonight

	23-12-2002 11:35									#51
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Merry Christmas guys.

See you Friday between 10.30 and 11 est

	27-12-2002 20:42									#52
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Are we going to play today, around 10:30pm EST?

	27-12-2002 22:24									#53
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that is good with me, however I can only play for two hours or so (I can play until 12:30 at the latest), I have to get up early tomorrow.

Last edited by Acemo on 28-12-2002 at 05:12

	28-12-2002 23:33									#54
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Missed last night.

I can be available this evening (Sat). 9 or 10pm EST

	29-12-2002 00:17									#55
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I am DEFINITELY in sat night, 10 pm is better for me and i can play late tonight. maybe we can finish this marathon game up then.

	29-12-2002 00:53									#56
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Fine here, 10pm it is. See you then.

	29-12-2002 13:06									#57
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What an epic!

Tossing nukes back and forth at the end made it all worth while, even though I did not win.

I decided who would win. That is a victory of sorts, especially if you could see my start...

At any rate... the Germans under Acemo launched the SS to AC. they had a few Vikings among the crew, I am sure.

Meanwhile, Ivan glows!

But, so do I.

	29-12-2002 22:39									#58
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It WAS quite a game, and yes, i think there were a few Vikings among the crew (they were laser specialists IIRC).

It was a good thing someone launched a ship, our world was headed fror a nuclear winter, probably before 1900 AD. At one point I was first in pollution w/54 tons!

	30-12-2002 02:40									#59
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I wonder just how close delmar was to beating both of us, combined. Maybe he will pipe up.

	30-12-2002 05:44									#60
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I would have started to research Laser when Acemo launched. So about 5-6 turns.