07-01-2003 19:41									#331
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Randolph - you posted this in the Saved Game Thread.


quote:

"Originally posted by Eli
Please avoid such mistakes, unless you want me to see their capital and starting location again.


And Randolph said:
Now that was at least a bit immature, and bordering on outright immoral. There goes my hope that this game will be played honorably ." end quote


I think this is an over re-action on your part. It wasn't done on purpose. As Eli stated elsewhere, soon as he saw that it was the wrong save, he looked away. His comment above was a bit of light humor. He has not shared anything else with us, his team mates. Nor would we want him to.

The pbem problems are frustrating for all. And one of the purposes of the demo game was to work out some of the kinks. Or at least have a good list of them for Firaxis.

Our team intends on playing honourably, and I don't think the kerfuffle involving Eli and the save warranted your comment. His actions and comments were neither immature nor imoral. I would suggest an apology to Eli is in order.

	07-01-2003 19:56									#332
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound His actions and comments were neither immature nor imoral. I would suggest an apology to Eli is in order.

If you had continued reading before you decided to post you would have seen that I withdrew this comment under the assumption that the name of the save did not let him know that it wasn't meant for him (as it should have). I assumed that the game players would be using some effective naming convention, apparently this is not true.

	07-01-2003 19:58									#333
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb If what Sir Ralph is saying is true, that would mean that the game may have become unbalanced for Roleplay if it has been getting additional turns of production. I always load through MP, play the game, allow Civ3 to use it's own naming convention for the save, then forward it to the next player.

It is true, trust me. Nathan reported it, in our Minitourney PBEM. He got it balanced out again by intentionally reducing his food/production/commerce the next turns. Only culture he couldn't balance out, he compensated this with gold. After this I tested it in one of my running PBEMs (not that I have sent the save...) and saw that it's indeed the case.

As for an apology to Eli: I already said in the other thread, he loaded a MP game in SP mode, no more and no less, despite the widely known problems. That is at least careless. If it was done intentionally, it would be cheating, but nobody blamed Eli to have done it by purpose. What is really in order is not an apology, but a codex how to load and care about the savegame.

	07-01-2003 20:07									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph It is true, trust me. Nathan reported it, in our Minitourney PBEM. He got it balanced out again by intentionally reducing his food/production/commerce the next turns. Only culture he couldn't balance out, he compensated this with gold. After this I tested it in one of my running PBEMs (not that I have sent the save...) and saw that it's indeed the case. As for an apology to Eli: I already said in the other thread, he loaded a MP game in SP mode, no more and no less, despite the widely known problems. That is at least careless. If it was done intentionally, it would be cheating, but nobody blamed Eli to have done it by purpose. What is really in order is not an apology, but a codex how to load and care about the savegame.

Holy @#$#! It is true. As a member of Roleplay I apologize and I will see if we can go back and discover if and to what extent this may have happened.

	07-01-2003 20:08									#335
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Randolph - I will add, though, that I fully appreciate your desire to see the game played fairly, and that all teams and players adhere to the spirit and intent of the ptw-demo game. There was a declaration made by most, if not all, team captains/leaders at the start of the game to that effect. And from what I have seen so far, and what I hope is the case, is that all participants are playing fairly.

I addition, teams would appear to be vary aware of the potential for unfair practices - including DL's and the unfortunate load bugs plagueing the pbem game - and are trying to ensure that all is copacetic.

Because I agree with you - IF there was cheating in the game - the fun would be gone, followed shortly thereafter by most of the participants.

	07-01-2003 20:11									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Dejon: If you save a PBEM game and reload it, you get another turn of production. This is another bug that has to be fixed. So while keeping a pre-end save for the records is ok, you under no circumstances should reload such a save again and send it as turn. That would be another possible cheat.

We are aware of this bug/potential exploit. The Roleplay team has never re-loaded a pre-end save and then sent it on. The pre-end turn saves are a record of what we did (where we moved,etc) in a turn. They were initially intended to also serve as backups for taking screenshots, but when we noticed the bug, we realized that wouldn't work, so now a turn is essentially "replayed" to take screenshots.

GhengisFarb - no, we did not rename the save. We rename our pre-end saves only. Had I sent Vox "Isabella of the Spanish, 2750 BC Pre-end.SAV", I am sure it would have sent alarms bells off immediately. My mistake was sending a pre-end save, named "Isabella of the Spanish, 2750 BC.SAV" - I had forgotten to name it differently when saving it.

	07-01-2003 20:18									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph I assumed that the game players would be using some effective naming convention, apparently this is not true.

I believe we have been saving with the game default save names merely because that is what Glory of War's practice has been from the start. And ND's too, which we know since GoW once sent us their save by mistake.

What does everyone else do? Should a convention be determined to ensure more potential file mistakes cannot happen?

	07-01-2003 20:21									#338
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quote: Originally posted by dejon We are aware of this bug/potential exploit. The Roleplay team has never re-loaded a pre-end save and then sent it on. The pre-end turn saves are a record of what we did (where we moved,etc) in a turn. They were initially intended to also serve as backups for taking screenshots, but when we noticed the bug, we realized that wouldn't work, so now a turn is essentially "replayed" to take screenshots.

This is exactly what I do. I had no idea about the extent of this "extra-production" bug and just struggled to take the screenshots right, but now I will take double care to:

1) shut down Civ3, if running
2) launch Civ3 fresh clean
3) load the savegame received from LI through Main Menu - Load Game
4) play our turn & hit End Turn button
5) save the game
6) shut down Civ3
7) forward the save

Hopefully, this will bring no more unexpected surprises/problems.

	07-01-2003 20:22									#339
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QUOTE] Originally posted by Randolph


If you had continued reading before you decided to post you would have seen that I withdrew this comment under the assumption that the name of the save did not let him know that it wasn't meant for him (as it should have). I assumed that the game players would be using some effective naming convention, apparently this is not true. [/QUOTE]

Randolph - you are right - my apologies - I had read the rest of the thread, but I missed the withdrawl comment.

	07-01-2003 20:28									#340
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack This is exactly what I do. I had no idea about the extent of this "extra-production" bug and just struggled to take the screenshots right, but now I will take double care to: 1) shut down Civ3, if running 2) launch Civ3 fresh clean 3) load the savegame received from LI through Main Menu - Load Game 4) play our turn & hit End Turn button 5) save the game 6) shut down Civ3 7) forward the save Hopefully, this will bring no more unexpected surprises/problems.

Folks - I think what we need here is a detailed set of instructions for all teams regarding the proper methodology for playing a turn 'safely', posted on one of the topped threads. Other players on each of the teams will be playing turns in the future, and will need this as well.

I have seen, in this thread alone, different views on what is the 'safest' method.

	07-01-2003 20:36									#341
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I don't see, why you need to replay a turn, just to take some screenies???

hitting the windows key or alt tabbing works just aswell...

Anyway.. no need to fight over this,mistakes will happen.

Now get that game moving !!!

	07-01-2003 20:41									#342
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Folks - I think what we need here is a detailed set of instructions for all teams regarding the proper methodology for playing a turn 'safely', posted on one of the topped threads. Other players on each of the teams will be playing turns in the future, and will need this as well. I have seen, in this thread alone, different views on what is the 'safest' method.

There are dangers with every method. I remember the save getting screwed up on the first turn because someone loaded through the MP menu and had the Accelerated Production turned on - we had to back up and redo turns.

AFAIK, you can load safely from the Main Menu. You must never load a save while playing another game (SP or MP), this applies to any in-turn saves as well.

	07-01-2003 20:56									#343
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quote: Originally posted by dejon There are dangers with every method. I remember the save getting screwed up on the first turn because someone loaded through the MP menu and had the Accelerated Production turned on - we had to back up and redo turns. AFAIK, you can load safely from the Main Menu. You must never load a save while playing another game (SP or MP), this applies to any in-turn saves as well.

The Accelerated Production was from loading improperly also NOT through the proper MP loading procedure notyoueither listed at the beginning.

I have used that procedure (the one your supposed to use) in this and 6 other PBEM games and have never experience a bug or glitch from it.

	07-01-2003 21:08									#344
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb The Accelerated Production was from loading improperly also NOT through the proper MP loading procedure notyoueither listed at the beginning. I have used that procedure (the one your supposed to use) in this and 6 other PBEM games and have never experience a bug or glitch from it.

Where did he post the procedures? In light of today's discussion, it would be very useful to dust them off.

I would also like to carry them over to some of the other pbem game threads I am involved in.

	07-01-2003 21:36									#345
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It looks like someone has deleted the first half of the threads in this forum along with notyoueither's instructions.

	07-01-2003 21:49									#346
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My proposal for a common rule to play a turn:

• Start the game
  
• Hit Multiplayer
  
• Make sure, Location is set to Local games and not to Internet.
  
• Hit Host
  
• Make sure, the Game rules are standard. At the left side, all options shall be checked, at the right side only Preserve Random Seed and Allow Cultural Conversions. Especially make sure, that Accelerated Production is not set.
  
• Set Game Type to Play By Email.
  
• Set Game Mode to Load Game.
  
• Choose the game to load in the dialogbox.
  
• Hit Launch.
  
• Enter your team password.
  
• Play the turn. It is not allowed to save and reload during the turn, due to the production bug.
  
• Save the game after the Save and Exit dialog shows up.
  
• The file name shall be the name the game proposes by default.
  
• Send the turn to your successor.
  
• Post "File sent" in the Saved Game Thread
  

	07-01-2003 21:56									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph My proposal for a common rule to play a turn: Start the game Hit Multiplayer Make sure, Location is set to Local games and not to Internet. Hit Host Make sure, the Game rules are standard. At the left side, all options shall be checked, at the right side only Preserve Random Seed and Allow Cultural Conversions. Especially make sure, that Accelerated Production is not set. Set Game Type to Play By Email. Set Game Mode to Load Game. Choose the game to load in the dialogbox. Hit Launch. Enter your team password. Play the turn. It is not allowed to save and reload during the turn, due to the production bug. Save the game after the Save and Exit dialog shows up. The file name shall be the name the game proposes by default. Send the turn to your successor. Post "File sent" in the Saved Game Thread

Of course this is the way I do it anyway except for the "File Sent" part. I guess I can work at actually typing "File Sent" and not "Sent to Roleplay" or some other variation.

>Sigh< The sacrifices we must sometimes make in the spirit of compromise.

	07-01-2003 22:06									#348
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Question - can Civ3 be running, or do you need a fresh start for hassle-free play?

If yes to the fresh start - that should be specified. It says 'start game' above, but perhaps we need the comment - "if running civ3, shut down and restart."

If not - then great.

Vondrack mentioned it earlier, but I believe his reference was to loading it via SP.

	07-01-2003 22:11									#349
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If loading through Multiplayer it doesn't matter if the game was running before.

	08-01-2003 00:45									#350
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So who has the game save now? As Arnelos was the last one to post in the "Saved Game" thread that would indicate that Roleplay has forwarded the save last and Vox is sitting on the current save.

	08-01-2003 01:18									#351
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No. Linux victa (or what was the name again?) is sitting on it.

	08-01-2003 01:29									#352
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Great sig Sir Ralph (I just noticed it)

	08-01-2003 01:46									#353
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Just for the record, everyone be careful if you see our team name in the save file... For some reason, on the password-asking screen, it will always show part of our map for some reason... I start up PTW, go to load game, and voila. There it is. :\

	08-01-2003 01:56									#354
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That is why games should be load from the Multiplayer menu only. See the proposed procedure above. I would suggest to make this a rule in this PTW DG. Even if it seems difficult, but it prevents everyone from unintended "cheating".

	08-01-2003 02:10									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Just for the record, everyone be careful if you see our team name in the save file... For some reason, on the password-asking screen, it will always show part of our map for some reason... I start up PTW, go to load game, and voila. There it is. :\

I have loaded a savegame from you & BFM many times using Main Menu - Load Game of a freshly launched (this is important) Civ3 and never saw a bit of your land (always just a black screen and the password prompt). The only problem is reloading or loading into a Civ3 that is not freshly launched.

	08-01-2003 02:18									#356
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Er... anyways... Sent to Gegogand...

And the glorious and infinitely wise Trip has gotten the "Saved Game" thread back on track.

Notice I didn't say literate or eloquent, what with words like "Gegoland"...........

	08-01-2003 02:33									#357
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What can I say, it's a long-running theme.

Ralph, luckily that's the only problem that my team has encountered, so there's really nothing to be worried about by loading through the main menu...

	08-01-2003 02:35									#358
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You do know, if you make just one duplicate, I will be on your case

	08-01-2003 07:17									#359
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Well i just got home and will be playing the Legoland turn shortly. Just give me a little time.

	08-01-2003 07:19									#360
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loading through the main menu. Boy what an issue. I have never had a problem, but I believe they can occur. In the future I will use the multiplayer method above.

I posted this in the PBEM forum. But the method above will work correctly. Again to point out, make sure accel. production is off. And make sure there are no other whacky game rules checked before you load the game. You should all know what the game rules are by now.

I know it's a pain in the arse. But it doesn't take that much longer. We should all do this.

And BTW guys if you don't know this. Use alt-tab to minimize civ3. Push the printscreen key first. what I do is push printscreen and paste it on MS paintbrush (I have to convert it to jpg if I want to send e-mails- because bmp's are so large). After I save that, I bring civ3 up again, then move the world screen around as appropiate, and then I press the printscreen key again. And paste again. Rinse and repeat etc.

There really should be no reason to reload if you minimize civ3 and paste the screenshots. This could avoid any accidental complications in the future.