09-12-2002 06:23									#31
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser [QUOTE] Originally posted by punkbass2000 I take it you think that guy should be able to spurt out anything he wants. There are limitations to personal freedoms in every country, punk.

So? How come the defense for America is always, 'Well, it's not JUST us', as though that argument has some validity.

quote: Ours just espoused the concept of having as few as possible.

Sure, America has all the necessary limitations. Who cares about freedom anyway?

quote: It's one thing to not be able to threaten the life of a president, but this is just too much

The guy made a joke. He did not threaten the President's life. It was a pretty funny joke too. Throwing him in jail is clearly ridiculous.

	09-12-2002 06:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 The guy made a joke. He did not threaten the President's life. It was a pretty funny joke too. Throwing him in jail is clearly ridiculous.

I was referring to my not being able to shout "fire" in a crowded room when I said 'this is too much'

As to that guy, joke or not, he was ignorant enough voice it where some could misconstrue it as being serious. Isn't that enough to spend 36 months in jail ...liked he'd actually serve 1/10th of that.

	09-12-2002 06:34									#33
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser I was referring to my not being able to shout "fire" in a crowded room when I said 'this is too much'

I know. I didn't particularly mean to have that part of it in the quote, it was just part of the sentence.

quote: As to that guy, joke or not, he was ignorant enough voice it where some could misconstrue it as being serious.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'ignorant' in this context, but I assume you're saying that doing so was a bad move. In any case, I find this argument irrelevant. He shouldn't have to think about something like that in a country that supposedly has free speech. I mean, anyone could construe anything to mean anything anywhere at any time.

quote: Isn't that enough to spend 36 months in jail ...liked he'd actually serve 1/10th of that.

Injustice is injustice, regardless of size. The fact that he even had to stand trial is ridiculous, IMO. Remind me never to go to the US, I'd probably end up in jail.

	09-12-2002 06:36									#34
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it's odd that so many people use the word ignorant, yet they have no idea what it means.

	09-12-2002 06:42									#35
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quote: Originally posted by revolt it's odd that so many people use the word ignorant, yet they have no idea what it means.

why does it have a double meaning in Canadian?

	09-12-2002 06:45									#36
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I think revolt means that you really should have used a word like 'stupid', as ignorant really just doesn't make sense in that sentence.

	09-12-2002 09:24									#37
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don't make me get out a dictionary and beat you with, punkbass. you either, revolt

#3 definition on dictionary.com for ignorant is "to be unaware or uninformed". I think he was unaware of his surroundings and that being in public among strangers (especially the city the President of the United States will visit the next day) warrants a little restraint when you decide to crack a joke about killing the President. I could have gone with either.

However, I now think both of you are ignorant (p.s. that means unaware or uninformed )

	09-12-2002 09:30									#38
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser don't make me get out a dictionary and beat you with, punkbass. you either, revolt #3 definition on dictionary.com for ignorant is "to be unaware or uninformed". I think he was unaware of his surroundings and that being in public among strangers (especially the city the President of the United States will visit the next day) warrants a little restraint when you decide to crack a joke about killing the President. I could have gone with either. However, I now think both of you are ignorant (p.s. that means unaware or uninformed )

I know what ignorant means. The phrase 'ignorant enough' is meaningless. One is either ignorant or not.

	09-12-2002 10:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Free Country?[/url] Yeah right.

Freer than most, dude. What does that say about the rest of the world?

And, before you jump down my throat, understand that I'm not some kind of psychotic would-be patriot. I'm actually in the process of bringing a lawsuit against the Bush/Ashcroft regime to put a stop to some of their post-9/11 civil rights abuses. That this can even be done, and that the federal government will submit to the rulings of a court at the end of the proceedings, says a lot about freedom in America.

	09-12-2002 10:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MiloMilo Freer than most, dude. What does that say about the rest of the world? And, before you jump down my throat, understand that I'm not some kind of psychotic would-be patriot. I'm actually in the process of bringing a lawsuit against the Bush/Ashcroft regime to put a stop to some of their post-9/11 civil rights abuses. That this can even be done, and that the federal government will submit to the rulings of a court at the end of the proceedings, says a lot about freedom in America.

Hmm, that link is saying a lot about where the freedoms are going, and its not towards the sky

	09-12-2002 11:15									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MiloMilo Freer than most, dude. What does that say about the rest of the world?

I believe I've already responded to this so-called 'argument'.

quote: And, before you jump down my throat, understand that I'm not some kind of psychotic would-be patriot. I'm actually in the process of bringing a lawsuit against the Bush/Ashcroft regime to put a stop to some of their post-9/11 civil rights abuses. That this can even be done, and that the federal government will submit to the rulings of a court at the end of the proceedings, says a lot about freedom in America.

I'm glad that you're doing this, but I will bet you absolutely anything that Bush will not be punished. And I think that says a lot about America. Also, though America may have decent political rights and freedoms, they are IMO meaningless given the economic disparity. In America, people with more money are 'freer' than people with less.

	09-12-2002 11:40									#42
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Why don't you folks take it to the OT forum? If I wanted to hear people whine about politics or foreigners tell me just how my country was run, i'd ask there, not here. This has gone from discussing the article to just bashing America, all well and good if thats your opinion but you should move it there since its no longer relevant to Civ3.

	09-12-2002 12:32									#43
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What difference does it make to you? The thread's already started, just don't read it. Try to ignore the post count from the General Forum too.

	09-12-2002 19:06									#44
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 I know what ignorant means. The phrase 'ignorant enough' is meaningless. One is either ignorant or not.

aw, punkbass, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't completely ignorant, but if you want to get into a semantic arguement about it... I'll concede.

But, in all fairness, I never saw a sidenote in the definition that said it could only be used in totality.

	10-12-2002 03:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 In America, people with more money are 'freer' than people with less.

Sorry, where is that not true?

I grant that liberties have been on the decline here lately. Believe me, I lament the situation. But,

1) what the heck do you care, if you don't live here? and

2) up 'til now I've avoided throwing around labels, but if you think a temporary shift towards conservatism in the American power structure, tragic though it may be, actually makes the country and its citizens evil, then you are ignorant.

A country is a conglomeration of citizens. I could argue that most Americans object to the aforesaid shift (remember, more people voted for Gore than for Bush in the 2000 election). So even if you think that the leadership is bad or somehow evil, you can't apply that logic to the country as a whole. We have to suck it up and wait this out for two more years, then we'll get back on track.

Of course, if you want to argure that American consumer habits are bad and wasteful and have negative economic effects on the rest of the world, then I wouldn't have to argue with you, because you'd be some kind of commie freak.

j/k

	10-12-2002 09:30									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MiloMilo Sorry, where is that not true?

Sorry, are you going to make this argument in every post?

quote: 1) what the heck do you care, if you don't live here?

I am generally interested in human rights.

quote: 2) up 'til now I've avoided throwing around labels, but if you think a temporary shift towards conservatism in the American power structure, tragic though it may be, actually makes the country and its citizens evil, then you are ignorant.

Temporary? I consder America quite conservative.

quote: A country is a conglomeration of citizens. I could argue that most Americans object to the aforesaid shift (remember, more people voted for Gore than for Bush in the 2000 election). So even if you think that the leadership is bad or somehow evil, you can't apply that logic to the country as a whole. We have to suck it up and wait this out for two more years, then we'll get back on track.

I never said anything about the citizens.

	10-12-2002 11:45									#47
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser aw, punkbass, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't completely ignorant, but if you want to get into a semantic arguement about it... I'll concede. But, in all fairness, I never saw a sidenote in the definition that said it could only be used in totality.

Hey, you roleplayers are the Spanish, right?

	10-12-2002 18:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Hey, you roleplayers are the Spanish, right?

yeah, I decided to be on a team that picked a civilization that could go through life and not be wrongly blamed for everything

you thinking it should have been America? you could then say there was no "eviler" force in the PTW DG game

	10-12-2002 21:04									#49
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No, it was just that someone on our team seems to think the Spanish are an AI civ, and I'm like 'I'm pretty sure there is no AI, and I'm pretty sure the Spanish are the roleplay team'. I was just confirming with an actual roleplayer.

	12-12-2002 06:07									#50
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All Punkbass does is validate my opinion that Canada is a socialist plot by the U.N. to undermine the U.S. Look at the flag he flies his opinions under! Fact: The only reason that Punkbass can even SAY what he does is because militarily poor, pitiful Canada hides behind the U.S. military's skirts like a girly-man in a red-neck bar...that bar being a very undemocratic and cruel world, not the U.S. Shame is, Punkbass, I just heard that Bush quietly ok'ed all the future support and aid that Canada will ever need to combat terrorism or outside aggression on its own soil...I would prefer to allow Canada to become just another puppet state of any and all U.N., anti-American interests until enough Western Canadians get fed-up, succeed and become part of the U.S.

	12-12-2002 11:03									#51
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Canada is bigger and we're on top. If this was prison, you'd be our b*tch

Last edited by igloo_boy on 12-12-2002 at 13:54

	12-12-2002 16:40									#52
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quote: Originally posted by FrankBullit All Punkbass does is validate my opinion that Canada is a socialist plot by the U.N. to undermine the U.S. Look at the flag he flies his opinions under! Fact: The only reason that Punkbass can even SAY what he does is because militarily poor, pitiful Canada hides behind the U.S. military's skirts like a girly-man in a red-neck bar...that bar being a very undemocratic and cruel world, not the U.S. Shame is, Punkbass, I just heard that Bush quietly ok'ed all the future support and aid that Canada will ever need to combat terrorism or outside aggression on its own soil...I would prefer to allow Canada to become just another puppet state of any and all U.N., anti-American interests until enough Western Canadians get fed-up, succeed and become part of the U.S.

Numbers, give me numbers! (Like the personnel amount etc.)

	13-12-2002 05:28									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Numbers, give me numbers! (Like the personnel amount etc.)

Pitiful Canada's entire military numbers something like 55,000 total! That is smaller than the size of NY City's police dept.! If a real country like China (Lord knows all those empty Canadian acres must look pretty good to a population of 1 billion people) ever decided to annex it Canada couldn't even muster enough force to blow the snot out of its own nose to stop them. Besides that, the almighty-on-high tax-sucking politicians in Toronto and Ottawa are making the tax-payers in Western Canada mighty unhappy. Igloo and his ilk would be better served spending their energy in keeping their own giant glacier in one piece rather than continuing to display U.S. envy. Yes, igloo, bigger really is better, and we be very much bigger!

	14-12-2002 12:03									#54
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PUNKBASS:

my point in the original post is that consumerist/etc values are connected to understandings of the world which are like games --ie where game theory is from. i think no matter what you try to make in a regular type computer game the most fun will always come down to being based on 'programs' which either implies competitive goals or individual tasks to overcome. there are other 'games' like tomagotchi that are interesting vwhich are more experimental but these have the consumerist aspect take them over in another way. most sim games by maxis though for instance which are PC games arent interesting past the first few days the only really good sim game in my opinion has been simcity starting with sc 2000 which increasingly has competitive elements, the second best is sim ant which is competitive also.
but at any rate i think most americans think of the economy , politics, etc as games people play and use analogies to sports games where there is no truth but there are rules.
and the only reason its 'primarily' american is because americans are the center of the culture today but europe and everywhere else is only in as much as they differ a negative image of america . the facets in contemporary culture are seen stronger in other areas of the world its just that they can center everything on america [ie globalization,postmodernism,welfare state, etc are all believed in stronger in europe and south america ,etc by leaders]

	14-12-2002 12:23									#55
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no truth but rules of play, like games., and i would also connect this to the law culture

	15-12-2002 08:19									#56
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quote: Originally posted by brianshapiro no truth but rules of play, like games., and i would also connect this to the law culture

Definitely. (That's not a criticism though.)