10-12-2002 06:24									#31
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I guess I just think that that 25% OCN makes a big difference at a key time in the game. And in the early game, the extra commerce bonus is magnified, and it compounds.

I still disagree with the Cathedrals. I don't think the WLTKD is worth 2-3 good offensive units per large city, which is the opportunity cost of a Cathedral. Suppose you have 12 large cities. In the time you build a Cathedral in each, you could build ~20-30 knights. I'll take the knights, especially if I am playing the Chinese.

I too wish there was a trait that made marketplaces cheap, but as you implied, it would upset game balance.

I have never tried to buy my way through the ancient age on emperor. I'll have to take your advice and try it. I usually don't like to buy early techs because I am an upgrade fiend and need all my gold for that. I've been playing on Monarch and experimenting with the new civs, especially Scandavia now that archers upgrade to Berzerks.

Culure does play a part in the score, but so does a swift victory. I guess somehow I slipped from being a builder to a pure warmonger.

I agree that industrious is probably the best. The early roads make a huge difference, and like I said, they make captured workers effective.

Bad luck can ruin any game. Militaristic does rely on luck, but good luck can break a game. If you get 5 or six leaders it is almost impossible to lose. I am playing a Scandy game and I have had 4 leaders by 1300 AD.

My favorite civ is China. Militaristic, Industrious and a great, well-timed UU.

	10-12-2002 08:08									#32
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I wonder why anybody brought up the Indians or the Aztecs...?!?

--Kon--

	10-12-2002 09:39									#33
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Being a builder from Civ 2, I started with Babylon a lot. But not being used to the number of units I would need in defense I would often get caught up in the new improvement to build while my Persian neighbor (culturally linked start) amassed his immortal army...

Let's just say, since then, I've started most of my games as Persia

	10-12-2002 11:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 I wonder why anybody brought up the Indians or the Aztecs...?!? --Kon--

I like the Indians -- they gave me my first Warlord win, for one thing -- except that their UU, which is nice in and of itself, shows upat at time when I don't want to be making war (I'm too fond of medieval wonders). But the religious/commercial combo means you've got a great early-game trait, a great late-game trait, and the opportunity to switch in and out of democracy at will. They're quite nice.

	10-12-2002 21:44									#35
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quote: I like the Indians -- they gave me my first Warlord win, for one thing -- except that their UU, which is nice in and of itself, shows upat at time when I don't want to be making war (I'm too fond of medieval wonders). But the religious/commercial combo means you've got a great early-game trait, a great late-game trait, and the opportunity to switch in and out of democracy at will. They're quite nice.

Actually, the timing of the Indian UU is the only thing that's good about it, IMO. If you get to chivalry without horses or iron, you're in trouble anyway. It can happen, so there is something to say for the "no resources" required nature of the WE. But mostly it's the timing. You say you like Medieval Wonders, right? Well, what better way to ensure you get them than to be in a Golden Age?

When playing Japan and China, I often trigger my GA via wonders, actually, despite their lovely UUs. I love the Colossus, and often build it. That covers "religious" for Japan (if not, then it's gonna be the Sistine). I also really like the Hanging Gardens, which covers "industrious" for China. If I miss the HG, I sometimes (depending on the situation), will do the GW instead, which triggers a GA for Chinaa all by its lonesome. Otherwise, it's Sun Tzu or Leos (either of which also does the trick for Japan in conjunction with the Colossus or Sistine). It all depends.

If, however, my early wars haven't gone quite as well as I hoped and I'm scratching and clawing in the early middle ages, there are few things that say "it's all gonna be ok" like a stack of Riders. That's true to a lesser extent with Samurai. The 3 moves trump the 4 defense, though I will say that Sams do vicious, horrible, unspeakable things to attacking knights.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 21:44									#36
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I ranked the Aztecs 9th best and the Indians 10th best.
(In orignal Civ III. With PTW, both of them fall at least two slots.)

quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 I wonder why anybody brought up the Indians or the Aztecs...?!? --Kon--

	10-12-2002 21:48									#37
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It's a better idea when playing any of the Asian civs to have your GA via wonder combo when culturaly linked starting locations is on.

(Otherwise, trigering your GA while at will will be followed up by your oppoent trigering theirs.)

Athough, a well timed wimpy foreign invasion by the AI in original Civ III (without PTW) can result in getting your GA at the ideal time playing those civs.

	10-12-2002 21:50									#38
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Lord Merciless- actually I still have to finish the first

I usually get so lazy to quit playing games when I reach the final stages

	10-12-2002 22:23									#39
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if the best civ is the one you can make many points with...take persia on a tiny map/pangea/80% ocean...20.000 points should be possible

Generally I'd say, that Egypt is the best-balanced civ...Rel./Ind. is great for building, Ind.+WarChariot is great for early wars. Second is China, the mil./ind. combination is really powerfull for archer rushes. Third would be the persians...Though I consider scientific trait not as strong as religious...the immortals really make up for it: research Iron in 40 turns...build up some infrastructure...enjoy! The tons of cheap immortals you build will often be enough to destroy any opponent until Nationalism.

	14-12-2002 13:03									#40
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I love to play with the Americans, the UU isn't the greatest, but the expansionist/ industrious combo is lethal on a huge map with 8-10 civ's.

I also like Egypt but I want the scouts more, they pay huge dividends on a map of large or huge size.

On huge maps taking any civ that is not industrious is a mistake, I get the feeling of being stuck in time, and I tend to start pestering my workers ("arn't you done with that mine already?" and "Hurry it up will Ya? I've got to keep on schedule!" are too of my favorite comments)

	14-12-2002 21:50									#41
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Egypt.

If I play any civ without the industrial (fast workers) and religious (cheap temples, free gov switching), I lose on levels Emporer and Deity.

	14-12-2002 21:59									#42
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Everyone should just admt that the Azteckys are the best

That was a lil biased statement there, I love the Aztecs, but seriously the best civ has to be either Aztecs or Iroqouis.

	14-12-2002 23:26									#43
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Ottomans :

Both traits are great, and the UU and golden age come exactly at the right time to conquer half of the world.

	15-12-2002 01:17									#44
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i still like japanese and chinese civs the best....havne't used my ptw much so i can't comment on those civs....but most of the new ones had weak traits

	16-12-2002 04:15									#45
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn The next three are America, France, and Celts for the powerful Industrious traight.

IIRC, Celts are Mil/Rel with a *****in' UU.

	16-12-2002 19:39									#46
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Babylon.

I always go for winning the scientific race and reach Mobile Warfare first. After that it is a piece of cake.

With the religious trait one does not lose time with anarchy, so the science race does not lose time.

So be friendly with the AI. Make as many ROP and other deals with them. Give them a few small favours (money) and make deals for twenty years and renew them all the time.

Do not agress them in any way: breaking deals, breaking deals between them.

Do not go for MPP or alliances but give them something small.

Go for the Great Library as fast as possible. Turn back your scientific research to 20%, accept the research given by the others and pile up the money. You are going to need it for the upgrades.

Lastly make friends with those militaristic guys. They are bad.

If you do this you can sit back and relax, watch them hurting each other.

Go for the kill with Mobile Warfare and Synthetic Fibers.

You will not need nukes.

Babylon, are these not the ancestors of Saddam?

	17-12-2002 17:29									#47
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Good to see there's no uber civilization everyone is keen on playing without exception. There are many nations I have never played (e.g. Americans). Sometimes I try to (when I read about a special strategy like German bow rush or how someone outplayed the AI on deity with "his" civ), but then I always end up going back to my beloved Persians. Militaristic is ok, scientific...huh. But you are only one step (iron working) away from your UU, which I use regularly to clean my continent. Nothing can withstand an ancient attack of 4, you can even crush Greece with those, and the GA helps you to pump them out even faster. And you don't have to worry about upgrading them to medieval infantry; yet you don't have much money then anyway.

	18-12-2002 11:23									#48
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I agree with all youse about the industrial trait, it truly is nice to have fast builders. The militaristic civs are my favorites, though (dont have PTW just regular)...I like the Roman Legions best of all as far as UU goes, but somehow I always have my best games playing as Germany. I like to play standard\continent with I suppose 70%?? ocean (the middle choice)...poop out a barracks while my wimpy worker infrastructures 4 or 5 good squares while i build up archers to destroy any neighbor civ who shares my continent !! then i have enough little archer dudes to patrol around and kill any warriors and settlers that may try to land

Last edited by High_Lord on 18-12-2002 at 11:31

	18-12-2002 11:30									#49
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by High_Lord
I agree with all youse about the industrial trait, it truly is nice to have fast builders. The militaristic civs are my favorites, though (dont have PTW just regular)...I like the Roman Legions best of all as far as UU goes, but somehow I always have my best games playing as Germany. I like to play standard\continent with I suppose 70%?? ocean (the middle choice)...poop out a barracks while my wimpy worker infrastructures 4 or 5 good squares while i build up archers to destroy any neighbor civ who shares my continent !! then i have enough little archer dudes to patrol around and kill any warriors and settlers that may try to land

	19-12-2002 21:49									#50
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France, man, it's gotta be France!

	20-12-2002 10:46									#51
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Wow I just had to post here that Iriquois has just jumped up on my fav list...those Mounted Warriors really are kick-ass!!

	20-12-2002 12:32									#52
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I've tried the Mounted Warrior rush and the Immortal rush, and Immortals are better. Maybe that's because I don't play large maps.

	20-12-2002 20:20									#53
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Dave,

Really? Immortals over MWs?

The immortal rush is probably easier to assemble b/c you can upgrade 10 shield units (warriors) to Immorts, and Persia is industrious, which lets you set up your basic infrastructure better.

However, MW's have mobility and the advantages that go with it. I prefer them. But they do take longer to get going.

Anyway, I'm curious: why Immortals over MWs?

-Arrian

	21-12-2002 01:35									#54
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Like you said, immortals are easier to get going. Besides the industrious and upgrade advantages, immortals can attack/defend in any group size. MWs require a critical mass to prevent counterattacks.

I wouldn't use Immortals to clear a pangea map, but they accomplish my goal of establishing two productive cores faster than MWs on any difficulty.

	21-12-2002 11:03									#55
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yeah , the MW is great for Pangaea...i did my game up random on a standard map, ended up being Iriqouis(well, Irq civ but my own race of Bongolians) on a Pangaea...anyway I wiped out Bab with 12 MW and used them to form a moving line to keep Persias stupid settlers running back and forth, keeping them from building cities on MY land

	23-12-2002 12:23									#56
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Name one civ with religious civ that sux in civ3 and ptw. even india is a good civ if u put time playing them.

Therefore, if I may I would like to conclude, once and for all, religious is the best trait.

PS For all you iroquois lovers, once you get over the fact that you dont have ur favorite MWs and stop crying about it as i have, the arabs are just as good civ as the iroquois. Its got the mixed feeling of iroquois and China, as the UU is very good at implementing chinese rider strategies.

	23-12-2002 14:17									#57
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I wish there was a trait that would allow me to produce Settlers faster in the Ancient Age. Oh wait there is! Industrious! Quicker built mines = Quicker built settlers! Not to mention quicker built roads (our settlers/troops get there first ), irrigation, tree cut rush aid, etc...

Aeson made some good points about Expansionist for settlers, but that is a gamble & map dependent.

The other traits are good 2nd place backups for Industrious tho.

	23-12-2002 15:30									#58
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"Best" is subjective but as I am still at Regent/Monarch level I would say you can't go far wrong with a Religious/Militaristic civ. From civ3 I would go for the Japanese as they have the best early medieval UU - golden age for Sistine and Leo's.

I once took the last Zulu city on an adjoining continent and stuffed it with Samurai and Musketmen. The Persians attacked. I lost one Samurai and they lost eleven Immortals on their turn. Then it was my turn and they lost three more Immortals and two cities with their pikeman garrisons.

My PTW favourite is the Celts. You can accidentally trigger a GA too early but I like the Gallic Swordsman combat animation.

Best industrious civ is Ottomans. If you can survive to late medieval then you will have good science and culture and Sipahi with artillery or air support can even take out infantry. Particulary useful if the AI doesn't have rubber or you pillage their supply so they are reduced to rifleman/guerrilla.

Last edited by CerberusIV on 23-12-2002 at 20:28

	23-12-2002 19:31									#59
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Egypt and Aztecs , in all the games that Iplayed they had bif empires. Germany is good on too. The worst is pretty easy: English. They always loose.

BTW, the one that I find more "out" is america, is quite disappointing look a wonderful map of middle earth and see New York or Los Angeles...

	29-12-2002 11:37									#60
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Wow! Only one other person claims France. I'm not sure if they were joking or not. Everyone jokes on France when it comes to war. In this game though, I have definitely been most successfull with them.

First Industrious and Comercial are my favorite civ specific abilities. I've always like industry, especially in SMAC, so originally I was attracted to that ability. I also like comercial for two reasons. In the early game I can support larger armies, and in the late game there is less corruption. The UU is kind of funny (until they are kicking your a$$). Their timing is great though if you can get leonardos workshop and then develop gunpowder. Just upgrade your spearman and pikemen, then go kick your enemies butt. Then its all gravy.