16-12-2002 10:53									#61
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Oh, and another question about your manifesto:

quote: We will never sanction the use of Planet Busters.

Would you approve their use to prevent PBs from being used against us? Say, for example, that Yang had five PBs in one of his bases, all pointed at us, and we could expect him to launch at any time. Would you approve of us launching first, to eliminate the threat? The total ecodamage inflicted would be only 1/5th of what it would be if he launched, and the overall damage and loss of life would undoubtedly be less.

(note that I am ignoring, here, the diplomatic repercussions; if need be, we could always repeal the charter immediately efore we launched)

	16-12-2002 14:08									#62
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Personally I would say no. I know the practicalities, but from an idealistic point of view that would be striking first. To be honest, I don't think I would ever sanction PBs, but that's an interesting point for the party. I'm sure we'll have much debate on that.

It would also depend if we believed he would use them against us (as in, has he a previous record, are we a particular thorn in his side, is there anyone closer he may want to use them on etc.). If I believed that he would use them against us, and that we are at war, and he has a record, and there was no other way of taking the base of otherwise preventing him using them, then I could personally condone it. It would take quite a bit though

Last edited by Drogue on 16-12-2002 at 14:32

	16-12-2002 21:17									#63
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I would like to say that, thanks to Herc's generosity, I have been appointed (or elected by the two of us if you want ) Leader of STEP ..... *cough* sorry

My first action is to declare that every 50 turns of the game, we will elect for a new leader. There are to be no limits on how long someone can serve, if the citizens still want the same person, they vote for them.

	16-12-2002 23:22									#64
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On the topic of Planet Busters; if another faction has them, we need them. It is as simple as that. We cannot ignore the MAD doctrine in this regard, given that the alternative (that being banning the development of planet busters by our government) allows our enemies to use it against us unabridged without any fear of retaliation. No one is saying that we SHOULD use planet busters, just have some for the mere purpose of retaliation if the Hive (for example) uses PBs against us first.

But I think its slightly premature to be discussing PBs just yet, we are only working with fictional scenarios which involve a Cold War with Yang. As it stand now we are at war with the Hive, and if the war continues I don’t believe we will be able to effectively implement MAD. Personally, seeing as Yang would put little thought into using planet busters against us we need to be prepared to invade him using conventional weapons before he has the chance. This way we avoid the development of planet busters completely. Then again we need to see which type of war would cost more lives. If conventional war with the Hive would have an end result of more deaths on both sides than the use of planet busters, we need to seriously consider that the option of planet busters in a first strike against the Hive (granted it is a rather remote possibility that conventional warfare would result in more death than the use of planet busters).

	17-12-2002 00:10									#65
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I agree, I count having them 'just-in-case' as a defensive measure. However I would only use them if there was no other way of destroying someone else's PBs, that we believed were to be used against us. If using one stops them using 5, we must consider it, but I would still be against it in most cases, especially as a first strike, it results in way to much damage, both humanitarian and ecological.

I would be very against removing the atrocity prohibition. We must punish any faction that commits an atrocity. And we will have little mercy for any faction that uses PBs against any faction. It is an atrocity, which must be (or at least be seen to be) punished, so as to discourage others from trying it.

BTW, what's MAD?

Last edited by Drogue on 17-12-2002 at 00:22

	17-12-2002 01:00									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I agree, I count having them 'just-in-case' as a defensive measure. However I would only use them if there was no other way of destroying someone else's PBs, that we believed were to be used against us. If using one stops them using 5, we must consider it, but I would still be against it in most cases, especially as a first strike, it results in way to much damage, both humanitarian and ecological. I would be very against removing the atrocity prohibition. We must punish any faction that commits an atrocity. And we will have little mercy for any faction that uses PBs against any faction. It is an atrocity, which must be (or at least be seen to be) punished, so as to discourage others from trying it. BTW, what's MAD?

MAD= Mutually Assured Destruction

	17-12-2002 01:06									#67
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Great in theory, and in real life, practically useless IMHO in SMAC. I've had Yang use PBs with me having them, and not using them when I don't. I don't think MAD particularly affects Yang (though many people would sleep safer knowing we can retaliate probably).

	17-12-2002 01:28									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Great in theory, and in real life, practically useless IMHO in SMAC. I've had Yang use PBs with me having them, and not using them when I don't. I don't think MAD particularly affects Yang (though many people would sleep safer knowing we can retaliate probably).

I agree, Yang will use them even if we have the capability to retaliate. The option of retaliation should still be on the table. After all, are we to allow Yang (assuming he does use planet busters on us or anyone else) go unpunished?

We should, before even resorting to constructing a planet buster, attempt to ensure that Yang never has the capability to build one. If this can be done, though conventional warfare, then we will not need to face the issue of either the construction or use of planet busters.

	17-12-2002 02:05									#69
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I would rather sabotage his production and research than use force, but yes we need to remove the capability to have PBs from him. No it shouldn't go unpunished, it should be punished with little mercy, but not by our own atrocity.

However, 'An eye for an eye' is not the way, we must rise above it. If he uses PBs I would condone a war, but a war of conventional means. IMHO, it is so unlikely that all the conditions for me to sanction the use of PBs (as mentioned above) will be met, that the manifesto still stands. STEP will never support the use of Planet Busters against anyone (to the extent that I would try to physically disarm it myself).

We are more civilised than that, and we will rise above it. We must rise above it. If not, we are no better than Yang.

	17-12-2002 02:07									#70
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that is a great idea...preventing Yang to ever build them....but we arent ready for such an attack away from our homeland....we will not be ready in a long run....!

	17-12-2002 02:17									#71
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No, but we have no need yet, PBs are a way off (especially for Yang). And we have probe foils to sabotage his production, and steal and ruin his research. ATM that is all we need to do IMO.

	17-12-2002 11:18									#72
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You do recall, I hope, that there is a probe action which allows you to destroy PBs. It may come in very handy later on, against Yang.

	17-12-2002 14:58									#73
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DP eradicated

	17-12-2002 15:00									#74
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I concur with Drogue and GT : sabotage when you can, during prototyping, production or the PB silos. Moreover, IIRC the AI dont cheat on distances at Thinker, so we can just check that.

	17-12-2002 15:28									#75
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As deputy leader of STEP I agree about the use of PB's by us. Preventive action will be to the forefront of our thinking. But it is a long way off just yet.

	18-12-2002 00:35									#76
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I need ideas for my Avatar, now I can change it. Anyone's input is much appreciated. As I posted in the Rec Commons, I will do a poll once I have some ideas.

What epitomizes me?

	18-12-2002 11:56									#77
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New age traveller

A Ploughman

	06-01-2003 07:34									#78
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Two issues have now arisen for reasonably immediate discussion:

Now that Drogue, our leader, has his own region, should we a least move the wonderful offices of the STEP High Garden to the perfumed gardens somewhere in Akiria

Second question: (for discussion here and/or in the STEP thread), now that we've established contact with Deirdre and her (cough) handmaidens (cough), how can we mutually benefit from this friendship?

	06-01-2003 19:38									#79
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I concur with Herc: Moving to Akiria would seem to be a sensible move. Which city is preferable? I'll update the first post when we have decided. For a picture of Akiria, see my Avatar (or the Flag of Akiria:

Yes, discussing Deirdre in STEP thread sounds like a good idea.

	10-01-2003 02:38									#80
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Drogue and STEP, should I move you out of the Jedinican citizen register?

	10-01-2003 04:00									#81
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Not yet. When I've finished the Akiria thread (work in progress still ) We'll move out. Until then I'm still a Jedinican

	16-01-2003 20:12									#82
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STEP has now changed region to Akiria, and, with Herc's agreement, will now reside in the Capital of Akiria: Aurora.

Herc: I was hoping, if you wish to, that you become Major of Aurora. It is almost purely an RP task though. Please visit the new region page, and see what you think. Pictures and comments/ideas are much appreciated.

Last edited by Drogue on 17-01-2003 at 17:48

	17-01-2003 15:44									#83
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I am honoured to be invited to be mayor. I will accept. Note however that when and where ever Cyclops is built I will be tempted to move there. Whether I can live in one place in the region and be mayor of another base is an interesting point.

	17-01-2003 15:46									#84
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Drogue: Kirov might also be interested in taking uop residence, especially with the enticement ( though he may not need or wish to be enticed) of a mayorship of another base NT?

	17-01-2003 17:57									#85
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I had already offered the Majorship of New Tassagrad to Pande, as I see it as a socially progressive, CCCP style base. However, if Kirov wishes, he is welcome to be the Major of Twin Peaks (tranquil base about to have much terraforming), or Major of the new city, about to be formed (frontier, exploration and archiological base), or even Major of the freshwater sea base (party island ). I will PM him and ask him.

	17-01-2003 22:04									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I had already offered the Majorship of New Tassagrad to Pande

What!?!
* Maniac quickly sends a mail to Pandemoniak asking him to become mayor for Pandemonium.

	18-01-2003 02:24									#87
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Hmmmm.... I though, as I said to Pande, that it was the sort of progressive base that he would fit, and has a new rejuvination and building plan.

*shrugs* But hey, if you want to play dirty....

	18-01-2003 04:47									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue or even Major of the freshwater sea base (party island ).

UN Marine Institute is reserved for the CIAC and its staff, i'm afraid. Maybe he can have Esprito del Aqua (IIRC), but i'll be assigning UNMI to myself

	18-01-2003 05:00									#89
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Well, being my region, I'm sure you have seen my plans for the southern most freshwater sea base. It is an Ibiza style party base, as the citizens of Aurora demanded. Island paradise

	18-01-2003 12:38									#90
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I deem it a great honour to be invited to Akiria to take mayorship of Twin Peaks. Drogue and Hercules would be a great company at this region. However, although Akiria is sure to be in need of new inhabitants, I would not like to perpetuate exodus from the other regions. And, though Maniac sometimes hardly refrain from sending his troops out on the streets (), life in Jedinica has been also very nice and pleasant (despite the lack of a free-drugs-base, for I have somehow coped with that ). So I think I will just wait until Pande decides whether he leaves Pandemonium or not , then I could choose the other option.