10-12-2002 14:45									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Quick show of hands: how many people think that this will actually stop abortions in Georgia, rather than simply driving them underground? Anybody? Anybody? Quick show of hands: How many think this will pass? Anybody? Oh wait... the people here on Poly that CAN'T READ! Like I said before this is so FAR from becoming law it is crazy. It is like wackos who submit bills in Congress for a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion. They introduced it, but if you think it will be law, you are smoking something.

But that's not the point. The point is that there are people here on Poly who think it's a good idea -- wackos, I believe you just called them. My argument is with them, not you.

	10-12-2002 15:40									#62
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quote: Is Georgias new "death warrant" on abortions a good idea?

it's stupid, stupid, stupid

if they want to ban abortion they should stand up and say it

	10-12-2002 17:22									#63
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It's nuts.

...And, even if passed, wouldn't it fail after the first test case? Last time I checked, it's legal to buy a gun in Georgia.

Therefore it's legal to use deadly force to defend yourself against assault, robbery or kidnapping. Enforced pregnancy is certainly assault by the fetus, almost certainly robbery by the fetus, and quite possibly kidnapping by the fetus also (you can't go places and do things that you could normally do).

Therefore it's killing in self-defense. Case closed!

	10-12-2002 17:26									#64
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Jack, there actually was a case in Canada where a women shot her fetus while it was in her uterus with a pellet gun. I forget the outcome, except that she was nuts.

	10-12-2002 17:30									#65
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Another reason why this would be nuts:

It establishes the principle of legal assassination. In principle, somebody could apply to the Georgia court for a death warrant against an adult. Depending on the mood of the court, there is a possibility that it might be granted.

Maybe I should take out a contract on John Ashcroft, on general principles. I might get lucky.

	10-12-2002 18:15									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless Another reason why this would be nuts: It establishes the principle of legal assassination. In principle, somebody could apply to the Georgia court for a death warrant against an adult. Depending on the mood of the court, there is a possibility that it might be granted. Maybe I should take out a contract on John Ashcroft, on general principles. I might get lucky.

Much as I would love to help you pay for such a contract, that probably isn't so.

However, the principle being established here is that the fetus is a person, and that a pregnant woman is actually a parent who can legally apply for the right to kill her own children. This should have some interesting ramifications for actual Georgia child-rearing...

"Bubba, you get out there and slop them hogs right now, or were gettin' us an order of ex-ee-cue-shun fo' yo' ass. You hear me, boy?"

	10-12-2002 19:41									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Nothing at all. Trouble is, they're not particularly material. If the state is going to start enforcing "responsibility" and "accountability" - then why don't we legislate a "responbility and accountability police" to tell people how they ought to be living their lives? People ought to drink and smoke less, eat less cholesterol, work harder, save more, educate themselves, and a shitload of other things - is it the state's business to regulate your life there? Hell no. Until the fetus reaches a certain stage of development, it ain't the state's business. Now if you want to take the position that the state shouldn't be funding abortion on demand, I have no problem with that.

That's the exact kind of posturing non-answer I've come to expect from Floyd. Color me disappointed.

If an abortion is not related to the health of the mother or child, and no rape was involved, what else is it besides a means of birth control?
And how is that responsible ?

	10-12-2002 21:07									#68
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quote: If an abortion is not related to the health of the mother or child, and no rape was involved, what else is it besides a means of birth control? And how is that responsible ?

A major category is probably "contraception failure". There is no such thing as a 100% effective contraceptive.

And how is that being irresponsible?

	10-12-2002 21:13									#69
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Of course. The abortions are primarily linked to contaceptive failure. How silly of me.

	10-12-2002 21:34									#70
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It's just an operation, jeez.

	10-12-2002 21:36									#71
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That deserves 2.

	10-12-2002 21:38									#72
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I don't get the big deal. It's just an operation to remove an unwanted tissue mass that has the potential to become a human being but isn't one yet. It's no more immoral than having a mole removed.

	10-12-2002 21:40									#73
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara but isn't one yet.

You just hit the point of disagreement between the two sides.

	10-12-2002 21:44									#74
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For abortions, and against executing murderers.
Some of this crowd are

	10-12-2002 21:45									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You just hit the point of disagreement between the two sides.

Yeah, I know. But a lot of people that support abortion also think it's immoral. I concede nothing to the enemy.

	10-12-2002 21:47									#76
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand For abortions, and against executing murderers. Some of this crowd are

Murderers are human beings. Fetuses aren't.

	10-12-2002 22:00									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ned In the words of Spock: Illogical.

Never take advice from a 60's tv show. Not very logical.

	10-12-2002 22:05									#78
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Using some of the logic expressed here:

There's a house being built. Nothing up but the framework.
Someone ambles by, decides to burn the framing down.

I think that when caught, the person doing the burning should be charged with arson.

Che protests, saying it wasn't a house, it was only the beginning of a house.

Floyd? Floyd thinks it's his right to burn the framing.

	10-12-2002 22:14									#79
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I hate the abortion issue. Hate it. Why?

Take this thread, for example. As Imran pointed out, this is a Bill and will most likely never come close to being made into Law. Yet we have 4 pages of debate on the subject. Some of that is because this is 'poly and we will debate almost anything. But most of it is because Abortion is such a polarizing issue.

It's also an issue on which the country is nearly evenly divided, IIRC. Yet the politicians spend all sorts of time and energy on the issue. Probably some of the pro-lifers really see it as a righteous crusade to stop murder, but the cynic in me sees it as a method by which the two parties can polarize voters in elections between candidates who are otherwise uninspiring and probably quite similar. Surely they must know that neither side really has a chance to "win" this debate in the foreseable future?

For the record, I'm pro-choice.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 22:15									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Murderers are human beings. Fetuses aren't.

I don't think this is the issue, Che. The issue is the right to privacy. The question whether the fetus is human or not is somewhat beside the point.

	10-12-2002 22:21									#81
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quote: Using some of the logic expressed here:

So what if the framing belongs to you on your own private property. It is arson then??

edit: If georgia was so interested in pursuing this, I hope they would just as enthusiastic to pursue cases where the mother needed medical treatment, like chemotherapy, that could potentially harm or kill the fetus.

	10-12-2002 22:27									#82
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The Hell you say, Ned.
I forgot you. Your logic is very similar to Floyd's.

	10-12-2002 22:43									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I don't think this is the issue, Che.

It's the issue for me.

	10-12-2002 22:46									#84
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand There's a house being built. Nothing up but the framework. Someone ambles by, decides to burn the framing down. I think that when caught, the person doing the burning should be charged with arson. Che protests, saying it wasn't a house, it was only the beginning of a house.

The house doesn't belong to the person ambling by, so he's destroying someone else's property (the fetus belongs to the mother). As well, starting a fire presents a danger to others (having an abortion is safer than having a baby), as fire has a tendency to spread. Your comparison is faulty.

	10-12-2002 22:47									#85
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In most all issues I consider myself conservative in this particular issue I am pro-choice (liberal). (and as I support womens choice to murder babies and am a capitalist isuppose that makes me the ulimate, evil incarnate ) As Imran suggests this has a snowballs chance in passing, but in the event it would and talking to the larger implication i.e. reversal of Roe v. Wade.

The implications of banning abortion IMHO are manifold.

1. If we allow for the arguement that a fetus is destined to be a human being and is threby endowed with rights (an arguement I don't buy into). Then their is a logical disconnect IMHO as to reasons why abortion is a allowable choice. Normally speaking women who are victims of rape or rape/incest are allowed the choice to abort in many conservative circles. Why? Is the life of the innocent child any less precious in these circumstances? Why is it that a women's/victim's rights supercede those of the unborn child? The answer is that women in this situation are considered innocent and not responsible for the acts carried out against them. Because they are innocent they are allowed to commit 'murder' if you will on the unborn.

This strikes at the heart of the matter. If a woman is considered irresponsible then its the same old "she had it coming attitude". "Shame on her". "Make your bed and lie in it". Its situational ethics that in my opinion is the height of hypocrisy.

2. The impliciations on a society are astounding. For the western world, a civilization empowering women to be equal and making up 1/2 the workforce it is inconceivable to me that we still hold women almost solely accountable for procreation. Slow is right there is a problem with lack of responsibility in this world. I , however, hold men as the more irresponsible gender. The staggering cost of single parent homes, due to lack of proper male participationin child rearing disgusts me. It becomes exceedingly apparent to me that as this society becomes more polorized with respect to distribution of wealth it becomes almost a necessity to have a 2 parent home in order to have a decent shot at success in life.

I also see a disconnect with the conservative agenda to eliminate family planning yet in the same breath condemn abortion.

Again, a very bad idea. Consider me now a libertarian. Smaller government in all aspects including lack of involvement in the bedroom.

Og

	10-12-2002 22:48									#86
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File a suit. Get a death warrant on your baby. Move to another state. Wait for a few years. If the child doesn't behave, go back to Georgia and get him killed.
Isn't that a great bill?

I'd agree with che on what the issue is.

	10-12-2002 22:51									#87
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What makes you think the baby belongs to you?
Never mind. I forgot totally for a second your thoughts on other things.
My error. Only a person of faith would recognize and acknowledge the fact that the baby was a "loaner".

	10-12-2002 22:53									#88
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You can't make me say it. No. I don't wanna. Not gonna . . .





























Ogalthorpe is totally on the money.

I feel so dirty.

	10-12-2002 22:58									#89
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Well, Hell. I already agreed with him, as far as rape goes.
It's as a means of birth control thats b.s.

	10-12-2002 22:58									#90
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quote: 1. If we allow for the arguement that a fetus is destined to be a human being and is threby endowed with rights (an arguement I don't buy into). Then their is a logical disconnect IMHO as to reasons why abortion is a allowable choice. Normally speaking women who are victims of rape or rape/incest are allowed the choice to abort in many conservative circles. Why? Is the life of the innocent child any less precious in these circumstances? Why is it that a women's/victim's rights supercede those of the unborn child? The answer is that women in this situation are considered innocent and not responsible for the acts carried out against them. Because they are innocent they are allowed to commit 'murder' if you will on the unborn.

Exactly, and what does that say for equal protection for the fetus under the law? It's the circumstances of the pregnancy that dictate whether the fetus has "death warrant'" protection or not, while others are expendable.