18-12-2002 16:54									#31
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I don't care about real life examples of annoyance; I don't care for that in a game. Gameplay > realism.

And this is the problem of CF's as I (and quite a few others) expect the game to model real life as much as is possible for a game system.

my solution for the CF problem is to distinguish between wartime and peacetime CF's. the CF formula would stay essentially the same, however instead of the garrison being automatically destroyed the following would happen:

Peace time: City flips and the former garrison is moved to the nearest friendly city or the capital. (peaceful revolution, think Hong Kong in 2000)

wartime: Each resistor does two points of damage to a unit and foreign nationals ( that belong to the nationality of the revolt) do one piont of damage if no units are left the city flips, if some of the garrison remains then the city does not flip and all resistors are eliminated.

	19-12-2002 02:57									#32
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Hmm, sounds good. Actually it's the best suggestion I have seen so far.

All Hail Mad Bomber

	19-12-2002 04:56									#33
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace Actually I was talking about your suggestion at that point, not mine. And you got the wrong emphasis. I was suggesting that your idea (if it was to be implemented) should be released as a patch (as opposed to something that would have to wait for a later version or even an add-on pack [son of PTW])

My apologies then. I still don't see, however, what the reasoning behind a patch would be... after all, the present system works fine. Patches usually fix bugs or add small features, not overhaul a major game facet.

Mab Bomber, that's a pretty good idea, but keep in mind that most cities have barracks... unless you have a force waiting to strike in one turn, you could not possibly take advantage of the damage done to the enemy because it would heal totally in one turn. Damage really isn't a very good solution because of this.

	19-12-2002 04:58									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber And this is the problem of CF's as I (and quite a few others) expect the game to model real life as much as is possible for a game system.

Really? You have a ways to go then...

	19-12-2002 06:05									#35
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Mab Bomber, that's a pretty good idea, but keep in mind that most cities have barracks... unless you have a force waiting to strike in one turn, you could not possibly take advantage of the damage done to the enemy because it would heal totally in one turn. Damage really isn't a very good solution because of this.

While correct that the units would heal up on the next turn, you do fail to appreciate that the Cf "attack" would take place at the end of the players turn and would give the enemy a full turn to exploit with further attacks if it chose to do so.

As far as your last comment, if a situation is modeled by a game incorrectly, to the point of not making sense, then it is simply not fun, even if it eases gameplay. I do not expect a perfect model, but I do expect a functional model. Right now CF is broke, it does not model real life to any credible degree. The good news is that it does not need an elaborate fix, just a few tweaks here and there.

edit: Many armies have had rebellions occur and have not been able to capitalize on the success, The Russians could have captured Warsaw with little ease during the uprisings of 1944 but were unable to do so because of supply problems.

	19-12-2002 06:12									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber While correct that the units would heal up on the next turn, you do fail to appreciate that the Cf "attack" would take place at the end of the players turn and would give the enemy a full turn to exploit with further attacks if it chose to do so.

One turn is almost always insufficent to lanch such an attack. In examining the wars I fight, it would be extremely unlikely that either I or the AI would be able to do anything with such an opportunity. It creates a "one turn window" that is almost an impossibility to act in.

quote: As far as your last comment, if a situation is modeled by a game incorrectly, to the point of not making sense, then it is simply not fun, even if it eases gameplay. I do not expect a perfect model, but I do expect a functional model. Right now CF is broke, it does not model real life to any credible degree. The good news is that it does not need an elaborate fix, just a few tweaks here and there.

This is where we disagree. I think CF makes sense, is good gameplay, makes the broader idea of culture important, and is in no way broken.

However, the conversation really isn't about CF being good or bad, it's about making it better, so I'll refrain from debating the current value of CF.

	19-12-2002 07:02									#37
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 One turn is almost always insufficent to lanch such an attack. In examining the wars I fight, it would be extremely unlikely that either I or the AI would be able to do anything with such an opportunity. It creates a "one turn window" that is almost an impossibility to act in.

Then whos fault is it for not having a force prepared, I always seem to scrape together a few offensive units for an exploitation attack against cities I had not planned to take, I think a competent player would be able take advantage of a fourtuitious flip. unfortunately the AI is another story. Of course not all cities have barracks in them (bombardment, failure to build, new city) so it would still be useful in certain circunstances. And a lightly garrisoned city would simply lose the units, whereas a strongly garrisoned city would not flip regardless of the # of resisters present. Finally you could change the damage to effect one unit at a time to ensure that some units are lost with the flip and do not just regenerate next turn.

quote: This is where we disagree. I think CF makes sense, is good gameplay, makes the broader idea of culture important, and is in no way broken. However, the conversation really isn't about CF being good or bad, it's about making it better, so I'll refrain from debating the current value of CF.

If it is not broken, then why is a fix needed. if you feel that CF's are fine the way they are, say so. I don't bite. Much

	19-12-2002 07:12									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Then whos fault is it for not having a force prepared, I always seem to scrape together a few offensive units for an exploitation attack against cities I had not planned to take, I think a competent player would be able take advantage of a fourtuitious flip.

The problem with this is that flips are so rare that having a force "on call" within one turn of assaulting and taking a city are very, very slim. Keep in mind also that border cities are not always the ones to flip. During wartime, chances of hitting a border city that turn are slim, but the chances of hitting a city they have taken that is further away are virtually nil.

quote: Of course not all cities have barracks in them (bombardment, failure to build, new city) so it would still be useful in certain circunstances.

I've never seen a city w/out barracks past the middle ages...

quote: If it is not broken, then why is a fix needed. if you feel that CF's are fine the way they are, say so. I don't bite. Much

I'm not proposing a fix, just a way to make it better. I said it's good, that doesn't mean I think it's perfect.

	19-12-2002 07:29									#39
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 The problem with this is that flips are so rare that having a force "on call" within one turn of assaulting and taking a city are very, very slim. Keep in mind also that border cities are not always the ones to flip. During wartime, chances of hitting a border city that turn are slim, but the chances of hitting a city they have taken that is further away are virtually nil.

That is strange, during wartime almost every flip is on or near the front line, and easy to deal with. But even if a flip occured in a rear area, how could an army be able to exploit this in real life without an immediate attack?

quote: I've never seen a city w/out barracks past the middle ages...

I take it you do not use many bombardment units. First improvement to go is usually the barracks.

quote: I'm not proposing a fix, just a way to make it better. I said it's good, that doesn't mean I think it's perfect.

Apparently we are closer in opinion than I first thought, I do think that on the whole CF is good, but every once in a while I do find myself muttering WTF.

	19-12-2002 08:42									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber That is strange, during wartime almost every flip is on or near the front line, and easy to deal with. But even if a flip occured in a rear area, how could an army be able to exploit this in real life without an immediate attack?

In my games I get a lot of flips that aren't on the front line. True, front line cities are more likely to flip because they have the (dis)advantage of enemy tiles in their radius, but given the randomness of flipping I get almost as many flips on cities that aren't on the front line.

If a city does flip behind the lines, I can do many things, including selling its improvements, rushing units in (if it isn't too far from the front line), or even abandoning the city.

The big problem for me is that I never have enough units to cover every border city that could possibly flip. That just doesn't happen. I think most of the time not even human players will be able to capitalize on that one turn opportunity.

quote: I take it you do not use many bombardment units. First improvement to go is usually the barracks.

Oh, I do, but almost entirely on the turn before attacking. Barracks to me seem pretty hard to kill, so I bombard the crap out of the defenders with one big barrage and then hit them with attackers the same turn so they can't heal.

quote: Apparently we are closer in opinion than I first thought, I do think that on the whole CF is good, but every once in a while I do find myself muttering WTF.

Apparently so. I don't think CF needs anything, I'm just expressing what might make it better. There is always room for improvement.

	19-12-2002 14:20									#41
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Too bad the two of you are not working for firaxis Your ideas on how to improve CF are very good indeed.

That said, the current CF model is fine, I can live with it as it is and still enjoy the game. But there are room for improvement. Having my Stack of Doom wiped out in a size 8 city that revolts is simply too much. Ah well, I just have to take the right precautions.

	19-12-2002 16:44									#42
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Have the dynamics of culture flipping changed much since 1.21?......haven't played much since then.

	19-12-2002 19:46									#43
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It has been some changes but I can't remember in which patch they occured. Minor tweaking only, I think they made units in cities count more against CF.