22-01-2003 22:02									#31
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Well, the main reason was obviously that beside the fact that the US were already a quite strong nation, the Spanish were far from being militarically important plus the US had much easier supplies. The events of the Independance Wars did not contribute anymore to Spain's military strength at that time.

	23-01-2003 03:59									#32
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FIrst of all, this is not prejudiced commentary. I am just going with what I know from studying history and recent events.
Spain lost pretty much all its colonies due to revolutions. Spain was so powerful because of its colonies. Spain is pretty small on the mapo, like England, and those two nations were colonial powers. Once they lost their colonies, they were just small, albeit very industrialized countries. Sure, England holds a lot of economic power, and English is in many ways the lingua franca of economics these days. And the former Spanish colonies have fallen into disarray these days. Mexico is dealing with a massive population exodus, encouraged by its president, to say nothing of the drug cartels. Much like Columbia.
I don't know much about most of the other SOuth American nations, but things are not the best in most of them.

	23-01-2003 09:39									#33
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I agree with your analysis Centauri. Spain was a world power, maybe they didn't have the strenght of nations like the UK, France or the US, but they were a world power. The independence wars in America (again, the continent) debilitate the power of the spanish empire.

I also agree with your analysis of the former american colonies. But, as I said in the first page of this thread, I'm really pride to say that Chile has become an "island" of developement and economic strenght of the region. Sure we also have problems but their are small comparing with our neighbors. The unemployment of the S.A. contries are 20 or 30%, Chile is only 7%. We just sign a free trade agreement with the US, EU and South Korea, and right now we're negotiating a FTA with Japan and China. Our levels of political transparency and lack of corruption are the best of latinamerica (we even beat the US in transparency ). But also Uruguay is a pretty consolided nation, called "the south american Switzerland". But the situation of the rest of the countries is really bad, too many poor people, corrupt governments, weak economies, etc. I hope that Chile's neighbors have a better future to come.

	23-01-2003 09:40									#34
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Edit: it was "proud" not "pride"

	24-01-2003 20:02									#35
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Sorry, but I don't think chile should be included, as other latinoamerican countries are more important. Although Argentina (my country) is in a very big crisis I think it's important economycally (At one time it was the 10th economy in the world), geographycaly and historically (Withouth San Martín, chile, argentina and I think peru wouldn't even exist). I think 2 latioamerican civs should be included:
1-Mexico/Argentina -one of the 2- (I think they are the most important spanish-speaking countries in latin america)
2- Brazil

IGUAL LATINOAMERICA TIENE QUE ESTAR UNIDA ANTE LOS IMPERIALISTAS DEL NORTE-

Last edited by South killer on 25-01-2003 at 01:28

	24-01-2003 20:47									#36
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Except for Quechuas, Mayas and Aztecs, I only see Paraguay as the best candidate for a south american civ. And just because they are the only native country the continent (is the Guaraní state).

Perú only conserve the name, probably Bolivia will reach the category of real state before this just becase it accepted the Quechua/Aymara reclamations, Perú started an acceptation of the reality of his bilingual situation but is very far. Only Ecuador stays in a position of inmobilism. Probably in a few decades we can see again the Tauantisuyu (a democratic version of it, of course!).

Maya culture is very far from regain its status, and aztec/nahuatl is just in a compass waiting what happens with subcomandante Marcos & cia.

Time is what need the people in this continent, just the one that we needed.

	26-01-2003 01:23									#37
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quote: Spain was a developed nation at that moment, but after the war with so many countries in South America, they didn't have the strenght to fight a war against a consolided new nation.

hardly so. They were lagging badly in industrialization. they were at a better place than Russia at the same time, but still, pretty bad.

	26-01-2003 02:41									#38
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South Killer you've got it wrong. The argentinians history book say that San Martin cross the Andes a liberate Chile, but the truth is that San Martin cross it in 1817, Chile was already free since 1810.

Anyway, I keep my believe that no South American country have achieve a goal to include it in a CIV game. Maybe old empires like the Incas or the Mayas should be included. Argentina has never reach a developed point, as Chile, Mexico and (maybe) Uruguay and Brazil have achieved. But afeter the crisis I belive that Argentina could be refunded or rebuild to have the former economic strenght.

	26-01-2003 05:03									#39
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IMVHO in Civ4 we need the Incas for SOuth America. We also need Portugal, mainly because they colonized Spain. We also need Israel for a Civ - despite being small, it is a powerful nation and in many ways the center of the world - and possibly another North American Native Civ.
Please remember, this is just an opinion.
I know that I don't know much about the modern state of most South American countries. I just know that there is widespread poverty in many of them, a rampant drug and counterfeiting trade in Columbia, and such. That's what I know.

	30-01-2003 03:29									#40
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Again I agree with you Centauri. The Incas are the only south american civ that should be included in CIV4 (I hope that Chile could be included in CIV5 ).
Also you're right with your S.A. analysis, poverty and corruption is the big problem in the latin american states, but as I said before a few countries are making the diference, from SA Chile, Uruguay and (maybe) Brazil, and from central america clearly the regional power is Costa Rica who have a growing economy do to the tecnological achievements and the new tec enterprises that have stablish their HQ in that country (Intel, Microsoft, etc.) and the seem to follow the path of Ireland, that has become a tecnological state since 1996-97.

	30-01-2003 22:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Chilean President (I hope that Chile could be included in CIV5 ).

You mean after 2010, when Chile will have freed Tacna, greater Patagonia and Mendoza. Oh, well, skip it: After they "reclaimed" all America west of the 68th degree and expelled all those occupatory research stations on Chilean Antarctican soil

	30-01-2003 22:56									#42
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Historically, several countries have sought to unify various countries under the same flag.

The disagreement has been under which flag that countries should be unified under.

	02-02-2003 09:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Chilean President pardon for the orthographic and grammatical errors

Considering that your English is far better than my Spanish (I only speak English), no apologies are necessary. The only time that sort of thing annoys me is when people mangle their own languages (e.g. doodz, sportscasters, etc.).

	02-02-2003 10:05									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III You mean after 2010, when Chile will have freed Tacna, greater Patagonia and Mendoza. Oh, well, skip it: After they "reclaimed" all America west of the 68th degree and expelled all those occupatory research stations on Chilean Antarctican soil

yeah man!
well, actually Tacna is a horrible city, so Peru can keep it
Mendoza..ehmm.. yeah that's cool.. but lets the mendozians to turn back to Chile

but lets be fair, Argentina need their patagonian region so, let them rest for a while (the future is ours )

And about the Antartica, the O'Higgins Peninsula is 100% Chilean.. I know, that a UN treaty said that the Antartica belong to the whole wide world, but only 7 nations have arrived in the early years to claim sovereignty of the white continent (besides Chile, I believe they are; US, UK, Russia, Norway, Australia and New Zeland)

A propósito Werna, tu sabias la historia que cuenta que La Luna es Chilena?

I miss your old avatar Werna, but this is nice too.


Thanks Underseer I also get really annoyed when chilean people mix our own language... specially, as you have said, sportscasters, and soccer players... actually they are creating a new weird language, I think



PS: My regards to the American and Israeli people for that terrible accident. My heart and prays are with the families of the seven space pioneers.

	02-02-2003 14:28									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Chilean President A propósito Werna, tu sabias la historia que cuenta que La Luna es Chilena? I miss your old avatar Werna, but this is nice too.

Cuentame! A proposito, conoces el dicho de Talca que simplemente dice "Talca, Paris y Londres"?

About my avatar: I just thought it was time to change it. I don't want to be associated only with a skull all the time - but thanks for noticing.

	03-02-2003 02:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Centauri18 We also need Portugal, mainly because they colonized Spain.

Portugal colonized Spain?? What do you mean??? In fact, Portugal was a "condado" (I really don't know how to say it in english! ) of Castilla in the first years of the "reconquista".

	03-02-2003 03:02									#47
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I meant Brazil!

	03-02-2003 03:04									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Weas In fact, Portugal was a "condado" (I really don't know how to say it in english! ) of Castilla in the first years of the "reconquista".

condado = county
reconquista = reconquest (I think )


Werna, in the 1950's a lawyer from Talca has registrated the moon has a personal property. In those years Marsian and Venusian soil were sale on really funny ad prints un the newspapers across the world. For "some" money, you got an official "owners land" certificate, and in that moment, no one has claim for his own the moon, so this guy (I believe his name was Antonio Mackenna) did it.
But that's not all, in 1969 and do that the legal owner of the moon was Mackenna, the president Nixon send a letter asking for authorisation to land in his property for "peaceful and cientific purposes" its true!!! Of course it was only a formality to avoid any legal problem. Anyway, Mackenna authorise him and he became famous.

He died in 1994 or 95, in his testament he leave the property of the moon to: "all the chileans and people of good hearts from the whole wide world, to remember that foolish dreams can become a reallity only if you keep your faith". Nice, right?

Is funny, but truth... of course in the 70's a resolution of the UN has said that the moon has no owner but all the humans.... anyway, Chile own the moon

	03-02-2003 03:09									#49
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ah, sobre el dicho "Talca, Paris y Londres", ocurrió porqué un británico que se encontraba en Talca una noche, comentando la gran cantidad de niebla dijo: "Talca parece Londres"... pero con un asento chistoso que hizo que la persona que tenía al lado pensara que había dicho: "Talca, Paris y Londres"

Anyway, "Talca, Paris y Londres" put that small town in a place of honor

	03-02-2003 03:10									#50
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I meant to say that the Portuguese colonized Brazil. It started with a dispute between Portugal and Spain over colonization of the newly discovered "New World." Both Catholic nations, they went to the Pope to solve the problem. The Pope drew a line on the map, and everything east of the line went to Portugal, everything west to Spain. It was a straight line, with only a small part of what is now Brazil going to Portugal, but Portugal's territory eventually grew to include most of the Amazon Basin, which makes up a great deal of modern-day Brazil.
This is why most Brazilians speak Portuguese (and some English and a lot of German, but I have no idea how that happened, at least the German part), and the rest of South and Central America (for the most part) speaks Spanish.

	05-02-2003 05:42									#51
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Yes!! Chile must be a Civ... I don't know why, but YES jeje
Nice story about the Chilean Moon Presi, I've heared before but I didn't knew that we still are the owners

	07-02-2003 07:13									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Chilean President Mendoza..ehmm.. yeah that's cool.. but lets the mendozians to turn back to Chile but lets be fair, Argentina need their patagonian region so, let them rest for a while (the future is ours )

In your dreams...

No sabía que posteabas por acá

	07-02-2003 07:31									#54
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quote: In your dreams

I knew it! Tarde o temprano un argento aparecería por aquí!
I was only answering the post of Werna :modoesconderplanesdeinvasión:

BTW, nice upgrade of your avatar

PD: aveces me da por ser medio anglo en mis post y me tope con la sorpresa de que por aqui andaba Wernazuma, luego la Q.. y ahora tu!! welcome to my "lost in the cyberspace" thread

	07-02-2003 07:37									#55
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I´m everywhere...

quote: BTW, nice upgrade of your avatar

I did it myself *feels proud*

	07-02-2003 07:48									#56
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Fair enough, in 50 years or so when Firaxis and Sons publishes Civ5 and Chile still looks to be a dominant force in SA. Obviously you cannot seriously include a country just cause its had a good DECADE, otherwise Caqnada would be in there twice

	07-02-2003 08:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Yanghead Fair enough, in 50 years or so when Firaxis and Sons publishes Civ5 and Chile still looks to be a dominant force in SA. Obviously you cannot seriously include a country just cause its had a good DECADE, otherwise Caqnada would be in there twice

hey ... but you're right

Argentina had wonderful decades, Chile since the 80's is in a really good position, and Brazil.. well they have issues to solve, but they also have the biggest market in the region.

As I said before, the only SA civ at this point should be the Incas. But that's good, is a challenge for the modern SA states.. beat those crapy incas! hehe

BTW, Canada should be in a Civ game... maybe as a commonwealth with the Australians or other weird mix..

	07-02-2003 08:53									#58
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Yeah, but India used to be a part of the commonwealth. And why is Gandi so aggressive, I mean this is the man who ended the Raj with PASSIVE resistance.

	08-02-2003 05:30									#59
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The only South American nation worthy of being in Civ would be Brazil, if any.

The rest is just made up of different levels of Hell and their corresponding sins, a la Dante....

EDIT: It's an analogy, so don't take it literally.

Last edited by JCG on 08-02-2003 at 05:38