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DRoseDARs
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"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Ok, I wouldn't call them idiots, but I would dismiss such stories out of hand. And Cosmic Karma is also not in the realm of my beliefs.  |
Doesn't have to be Karma. When you dismiss a *opens a bottomless pit of roundabout debate on this point* "plausible scenario," you automatically open yourself to the problem of not being prepared to handle that very scenario coming to occurance.
Take the threat of asteriods. We all accept that the are unpleasant things when the smack into the Earth. OK. So why aren't we putting more effort into detecting, tracking, and killing asteriods that come too close? Oh, because they're SO rare and SO far away that the chance of them hitting is SO remote. Right. So let's pretend they don't exist, cause that's just about what we're doing, only cheaper (not spending the funds on currently meager research on the subject).
New scenario and relevant to the thread: Alien civilization(s). We have only our own historical contact to research in regards to alien contact. The Europeans were alien to the native peoples of the Americas and South Pacific. 'Nuff said there. If humanity isn't prepared for even the remotest possibility of contact with extraterrestials, then first contact could be disasterous if we're the visited ones, bloody if we're the visitors. Not being open to the possibilities means protective measures won't be in place. What if police didn't prepare for riot scenarios, what if the military didn't prepare for urban warfare, what if the government didn't prepare for unpopularity for its actions? Prepatory measures protect us from the remote possibilities of VERY unpleasant scenarios coming to pass, terrestrial and beyond.
As far as government cover-ups regarding UFOs, my jury is still out. Although I agree that it would be exceedingly difficult to maintain the secret, I wouldn't be suprised if it turns out they HAVE been covering something of that magnitude. The US military has conducted "experiments" on its soldiers and civilians in the past and has tried to avoid fessing up. And like cockroaches, scurring whenever someone uncovers their crimes against Humanity, they try to downplay their actions. To assume they wouldn't and couldn't cover up something larger isn't a wise course of action. At the VERY least, having conspirists hot on the authority's tail keeps the authorties on their toes and in check. It's called "watchdogging."
And besides, the conspirists give writers and entertainers PLENTY of material to work with... 
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:24
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Again, that's taking one known example (and because of observational limitations our only example) and assuming all other examples would be the same. There has been speculation that Silicon based life is possible. Carbon is the 'best' substance we know of for formation of life under earth like conditions, but it doesn't mean it is the only substance. DNA is reliant on Carbon (among other things like oxygen and phosphorus), life in general isn't.
http://weboflife.ksc.nasa.gov/curre...riginOfLife.htm
quote:
Titan’s example begs the question of whether life can spring from a biochemistry different from our own. Is water the only medium that can support life? Must DNA be the genetic code? To be considered alive, a thing must meet two criteria: it must carry the information necessary for reproduction and it must posses the ability to evolve. This definition puts no limits on the materials from which life is made. Still, we have only the one example of life here on Earth. |
Another distinct possibility, because of the time required for interstellar travel, is that contact with aliens (DNA based) would only happen with their machine offspring, as Hawking touches on in this article.
quote:
But an easier way which is almost within our capabilities already would be to send machines. These could be designed to last long enough for interstellar travel. When they arrived at a new star they could land on a suitable planet and mine material to produce more machines that could be sent onto yet more stars. These machines would be a new form of life based on mechanical and electronic components rather than macro-molecules. They could eventually replace DNA based life just as DNA may have replaced an earlier form of life. |
We can't say that Carbon based DNA life is the only possibility, though it's most likely that DNA life would be Carbon based. Even if it does turn out that Carbon based DNA life is the only way life could possibly evolve on it's own, we, as the result of that process are capable of creating other lifeforms in other mediums. Mechanical/electrical life is almost within our grasp even now.
I just think it's likely our knowlege of lifeforms and the way they develope are less than complete. I think it's a safe assumption based on the fact that we only have one example of any possible process/environment to base our knowlege on at this point, and that one example isn't entirely understood as it is. We are constantly learning new things about life on this earth, and may yet find some form of life that developed in a distinctly different process than we did, even in this environment.
A few years ago there was an article I read (discover or national geographic, may have been scientific american or something else entirely) that dealt with a new microbe found in subterranean caves which seemed to be nitrogen based (nitrogen is part of the backbone of proteins). It existed in a super rich nitrogen environment where they didn't expect to find life. I haven't heard anything more on the subject, and can't find the article online, so it probably turned out to be carbon based... but that's beside the point. The possibility for life to exist in a manner which we don't expect is one possibility that keeps proving itself over and over again as our knowlege increases.
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123john321
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I don't know, the only thing I'm sure of is were not lone... did they find us? Are there gov't UFO conspiracies? I don't think so...
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Dr Strangelove
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Perhaps some seemingly insignificant country like Pitcairn Island will suddenly acquire really dynamite military technology. The rest of the world will fall within a year. The ruling Pitcairners will enjoy a thousand year reign as their alien sponsors take what thy need from the Earth.
Perhaps they'll be like the Ferengi. They'll come down from the sky ready for business and the nations of the Earth will line up at their door.
Gasp! What if they came with interstellar Jesuits or a Galactic Jihad? Suppose they're Scientologists? Hindus? Wotanists? Druids?
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Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
The chemistry of living things on different worlds will probably be similar since earthlike planets will probably start out with similar atmospheres; mostly nitrogen, carbon dioxide, ammonia, methane, water vapor, and hydrogen, with no oxygen. Pass lightning through it and you get the same thing no mater what world you're on; amino acids, sugars, nitrogeneous compounds that make the code carrying parts (Adenine, Thiamine, Cytosine, and Guanine) of nucleic acids, coenzymes ,("vitamins") etc. The only chemical differences will be in the details. For example, on earth, the backbone of DNA and RNA are based on phosphate ions and 5-carbon sugars. (ribose, Deoxyribose, etc.) On another world, nucleic acids might have a backbone of sulfate ions and 6-carbon sugars. (glucose, fructose, etc.) Amino acids that make up proteins might also differ slightly. Some amino acids may be universal since they were very common in the primordial soup. (glysine, alanine, lysine) But the rarer amino acids, like methionine, tyrosine, aspartate, phenylalanine, etc. on earth, would differ. The major differences will be in the form of the organisms. no intellegent species will look similar to us, that takes far to many doses of convergent evolution. |
Woah, another biochemist in the house!  But just one thing, it is thymine not thiamine, which is a vitamin 
Yes, their equivalent to our nucleic acids would be interesting. There are more nitrogenous bases available than just A, T, G and C too, it is possible they could use several others. The backbone? Well the pentose phosphate backbone with 5'-3' bonding gives it it's helical structure and gives a duplex strand of DNA it's stability. Whether the sulphate backbone would be feasible, hmm, it comes down to another thing of the structure of the sugar phosphate backbone. The problem is that would a sulphur equivalent of ATP and ADP possess the same properties that make it the 'currency of energy' within the cell? Phosphorus and phosphate possesses some unique properties that make it ideal...not possessed by sulphur...as for the amino acids, that too is an interesting one. I don't think it necessarily has to be a fact that all organisms have to use protein, as has been seen, autocatalytic RNA exists. The limitations here is that there aren't the same repertoire of base pairs, but it is quite feasible that translation to a nucleic acid with a greater variety of base pairs could exist...complicated nucleic acids that can form their own unique motifs, secondary, tertiary and quaternary structures. I don't think it is restricted to the polypeptide.
As for us contacting other species, if the action is hostile then lets face it, the amount of energy required to get these aliens this kind of distance in a reasonable amount of time would probably indicate that they could eliminate anything on earth with consumate ease...I doubt an encounter would be like that. In fact if they are zooming about, we have nothing of interest to offer them and they will leave us to our own devices.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Doesn't have to be Karma. When you dismiss a *opens a bottomless pit of roundabout debate on this point* "plausible scenario," you automatically open yourself to the problem of not being prepared to handle that very scenario coming to occurance.
Take the threat of asteriods. We all accept that the are unpleasant things when the smack into the Earth. OK. So why aren't we putting more effort into detecting, tracking, and killing asteriods that come too close? Oh, because they're SO rare and SO far away that the chance of them hitting is SO remote. Right. So let's pretend they don't exist, cause that's just about what we're doing, only cheaper (not spending the funds on currently meager research on the subject). |
In the case of an asteroid hitting the earth (which is more likely, IMO, than contact with aliens), we know for certain it will cause harm, and we know that there might be some ways (deflection, destroying it, etc.) that could help. So it makes sense to monitor them and see if any look like they might come close and be prepared. It makes sense to spend money on it.
But that analogy doesn't work for aliens. We have no idea what aliens would be like, why they'd come, how they would communicate, whether or not they'd be aggressive, etc. We don't even know if they exist, and given the improbability of their close proximity and ability to travel to us or us to them, it is useless to "prepare" for them. How would we prepare for something of which we have no concept? How would we know what to do? What, really, could we do different?
Asteroids are at least a tangible reality. Aliens are an unknown quantity for which I don't think we can be prepared. And it's not one for which I think we need to be prepared. If they show up, they show up. What can we do?
quote:
New scenario and relevant to the thread: Alien civilization(s). We have only our own historical contact to research in regards to alien contact. The Europeans were alien to the native peoples of the Americas and South Pacific. 'Nuff said there. If humanity isn't prepared for even the remotest possibility of contact with extraterrestials, then first contact could be disasterous if we're the visited ones, bloody if we're the visitors. |
The Native American analogy is actually okay, because it also shows my point. What could the Amerinds have done to "prepare" for the Europeans? It wasn't stupid naivity that let the Amerinds to destruction, it was a combination of geographic bad luck and biological unpreparedness. They were doomed on first contact, and there was nothing they could have done about it short of sinking every foreign ship that came close to their shores, which was a patent impossibility. You can't be prepared for an epidemic disease you don't know exists and have no way to treat with your technology.
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Odin
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Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Woah, another biochemist in the house! But just one thing, it is thymine not thiamine, which is a vitamin
Yes, their equivalent to our nucleic acids would be interesting. There are more nitrogenous bases available than just A, T, G and C too, it is possible they could use several others. The backbone? Well the pentose phosphate backbone with 5'-3' bonding gives it it's helical structure and gives a duplex strand of DNA it's stability. Whether the sulphate backbone would be feasible, hmm, it comes down to another thing of the structure of the sugar phosphate backbone. The problem is that would a sulphur equivalent of ATP and ADP possess the same properties that make it the 'currency of energy' within the cell? Phosphorus and phosphate possesses some unique properties that make it ideal...not possessed by sulphur...as for the amino acids, that too is an interesting one. I don't think it necessarily has to be a fact that all organisms have to use protein, as has been seen, autocatalytic RNA exists. The limitations here is that there aren't the same repertoire of base pairs, but it is quite feasible that translation to a nucleic acid with a greater variety of base pairs could exist...complicated nucleic acids that can form their own unique motifs, secondary, tertiary and quaternary structures. I don't think it is restricted to the polypeptide.
As for us contacting other species, if the action is hostile then lets face it, the amount of energy required to get these aliens this kind of distance in a reasonable amount of time would probably indicate that they could eliminate anything on earth with consumate ease...I doubt an encounter would be like that. In fact if they are zooming about, we have nothing of interest to offer them and they will leave us to our own devices. |
Good ideas on the RNA.  I reed in a book on prebiotic chemistry that the reason that many biomolecules, that deal with energy transfer, like ATP, use phospate is that the bonds that join phosphate ions together are very energy rich. Now I'm reading on how the triplet genetic code came into being. 
I have also thought of some things that would evolve on all earth-like worlds:
Photosynthesis: ends life's reliance on the prebiotic compounds.
Sex: speeds up evolution and increases resistance to parasites.
Flight: evolved 4 times on earth. (insects, pterosaurs, birds, bats) Has many advantages to ones that uses it, but reqires warm-bloodedness.
Endothermy: Warm-bloodedness evolved in may groups. (Insects, Mackrel Sharks like the Great White, Tuna, Mammals, some aquatic Mesozoic reptiles, Pterosaurs, Dinosaurs.)
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Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Starchild
Yeah, but silicon tends to be heavy and rigid, totally unlike nice, light, happy carbon. I mean, compare CO2 to SiO2.... |
Yes, well we live on a planet with a high abundance of silicon as well but there are very, very few biological roles for silicon. Silicon doesn't concatenate like carbon, although it can form silanes with alternate oxygen atoms, although no one really knows why.
So yeah, it is hard to really say about the biological functionality of silicon, but SiO2 is almost completely inert and would not readily form other compounds like CO2
As for ATP, well basically the hydrolysis of ATP to ADP results in a very large change in free energy, and hence other reactions are coupled to it. It is related to the P-O bond. But that stuff is in the realms of the chemist, not my area. Perhaps a chemist would like to answer it.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:24
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quote:
As for ATP, well basically the hydrolysis of ATP to ADP results in a very large change in free energy, and hence other reactions are coupled to it. It is related to the P-O bond. But that stuff is in the realms of the chemist, not my area. Perhaps a chemist would like to answer it.
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errm, I thought you biochemists should know it. After all, it's not like those nucleotides line-up by themselves, and you should know a bit more about DNA polymerase-III. 
as to how they got together in the first place, I imagine it was pure chance, but pure chance is a silly expression when one simultaneously tries billions of times, for billions of years. you had a bunch of fatty acids floating in water, and they're known to spontaneously create proto-cell-walls. through the van der Vaals interactions. nucleic and other bases were also formed over time, and then, phosphates were abundant. but how would the sugar be formed? could it be formed? perhaps. But how would the elaborate mechanism of the Ribosome be created? *scratches head* I guess, if I knew that, I'd get the Nobel Prize.
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DRoseDARs
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"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:24
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Boris:
You missed my point on BOTH counts. With the asteroids, WE KNOW THEY PRESENT A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER. So why aren't we making more effort at defending against them? This is ludacris that we aren't, that's my point. I was being faceious when I said "let's pretend they don't exist." That mentality basically reflects current concern about the threat, or rather the near-total lack of concern.
For the native peoples (remember, it wasn't just the Americas the Europeans decimated...), I agree that there really wasn't much for them to do to protect themselves from something TOTALLY unexpected coming from the eastern seas. But therein lies the lesson: WE CAN LEARN FROM HISTORY. Otherwise, we take on the "stupid naivity" quality you seemed to think I was implying. We know that we DON'T know what's out there. By taking simple, basic precautions, we can at least guard against some ill-effects of First Contact with an alien civilization. It's not a matter of preparing us for THEIR arrival (meaning preparing for things about them we know nothing about), it's a matter of preparing US for their arrival(meaning preparing for things about us we know EVERYTHING about). It at least gives us a chance to cope. We can't know how exactly the scenario will play out, but we can guess how it might (based on our own history) and prepare for some of it. Living in a fantasy world where aliens CAN'T exist invites unprecedented disaster.
Although most What-If scenarios are ultimately pointless exercises of the mind as they can't be view except in hindsight, some actually are good to consider, even plan for beforehand.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Boris:
You missed my point on BOTH counts. With the asteroids, WE KNOW THEY PRESENT A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER. So why aren't we making more effort at defending against them? This is ludacris that we aren't, that's my point. I was being faceious when I said "let's pretend they don't exist." That mentality basically reflects current concern about the threat, or rather the near-total lack of concern. |
No, I GOT your POINT, I just DISAGREED, Mr. CAPSman. You missed MINE.
As I said, it makes sense to prepare for an asteroid hitting, as it's a quantifiable thing. Why do you think we AREN'T making more effort to defend against them? Remember a few months back when astronomers announced they had found an asteroid that might come close enough to hit? They ARE looking out for them. We ARE taking precautions. Why? Because it's something we can, reasonably, predict. We will see it coming from a ways away. We have ideas for how to destroy them (tactical nukes, perhaps).
quote:
For the native peoples (remember, it wasn't just the Americas the Europeans decimated...), I agree that there really wasn't much for them to do to protect themselves from something TOTALLY unexpected coming from the eastern seas. But therein lies the lesson: WE CAN LEARN FROM HISTORY. |
You missed my point again here--even if the natives had been expecting the Europeans, they would have been unable to protect against them. What could they have done? How could they have prepared? What ability did they have to fend of smallpox?
quote:
Otherwise, we take on the "stupid naivity" quality you seemed to think I was implying. We know that we DON'T know what's out there. By taking simple, basic precautions, we can at least guard against some ill-effects of First Contact with an alien civilization. |
What precautions? How? You're missing my point here as well--there's NOTHING we can prepare for. It's a completely unknown quantity!
quote:
It's not a matter of preparing us for THEIR arrival (meaning preparing for things about them we know nothing about), it's a matter of preparing US for their arrival(meaning preparing for things about us we know EVERYTHING about). It at least gives us a chance to cope. |
Cope? So by saying it's so highly improbable that aliens will ever contact us or us them, that's somehow diminishing our ability to cope? I don't think so. We should be "mentally steeling" ourselves is what you mean. Why? What possible good will that do for society as we live in it? In what way will it change any outcome?
quote:
We can't know how exactly the scenario will play out, but we can guess how it might (based on our own history) and prepare for some of it. Living in a fantasy world where aliens CAN'T exist invites unprecedented disaster. |
 I think you're being a weeee bit overdramatic here. First, I was never talking about aliens can't existing, just the likelihood of them getting here or us there, which is virtually nil. It would be silly for anyone to dismiss the possibility outright of aliens existing somewhere. But I just don't see what disaster will occur by not believing they can get here. How would it make a difference in the outcome?
quote:
Although most What-If scenarios are ultimately pointless exercises of the mind as they can't be view except in hindsight, some actually are good to consider, even plan for beforehand. |
I'd say they all are pointless to consider. There are many things in life we have no control over, so it is a waste of time worrying about them. This is certainly one of them. We have no control over what aliens might contact us, or what they will want, or what they will be like. Any assumptions on those points would be as likely to lead to something good/bad happening as any other. So why worry about it? Why even consider it?
Most importantly, why waste $$ on it at NASA when they could be using it to fend off asteroids?
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15-12-2002 12:32
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