16-12-2002 06:14									#31
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that's kinda the point

	16-12-2002 06:19									#32
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Pah. I haven't een getting enough sleep.

So you not gone home yet? I left yesterday.

	16-12-2002 06:39									#33
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i went home on friday.

yeah sleep depravation is a bugger, i was on the raz for 7 days straight before i came home so i've just been chilling these last two days.

	16-12-2002 08:06									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Scrap the NHS and have a private system. If you look at the average amount the NHS spends on someone and compare that to equivalent spent in the US, the American gets far better treatment.

Nonsense. US Healthcare is shockingly inefficient... they pay considerably more in terms of %GDP for a system that is no better, and that excludes a significant minority completely.

	16-12-2002 12:38									#35
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Nonsense. US Healthcare is shockingly inefficient... they pay considerably more in terms of %GDP for a system that is no better, and that excludes a significant minority completely.

The US systems is far better if you are on average or above income, if you are a low earner its crap compared to the UK

	16-12-2002 12:43									#36
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon - Against legalising cannabis - Pro-harsher punishments on youth offenders - Against non-married couples adopting - Pro section 28 and other anti-homosexual policies

Not to ruin your party, but all of the above are not "right wing" policies, but rather authoritarian policies.

The only true "right wing" policy you listed is this:

quote: - Wish to lower taxes/ against raising taxes

People should really learn that religious conservatives are not synonymous with right wingers, they're just authoritarian right wingers...

I realize it makes people's lives easier if you brand right wingers all under the same scope of evil bastards, but it's a gross simplification and very wrong.

I consider myself right wing, for example, and I'm all for legalization of marijuana, non-married couples adopting, gay marriage, etc.

True right wingers are more of a "government should mind its own business and do what's best for the people".

I'm all for low taxes and low government overhead, but I'm also all for public education, the option of public healthcare, and social welfare programs.

Remember, right wing is not bad, but religious conservatives are very bad.

	16-12-2002 17:48									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Not to ruin your party, but all of the above are not "right wing" policies, but rather authoritarian policies. The only true "right wing" policy you listed is this: People should really learn that religious conservatives are not synonymous with right wingers, they're just authoritarian right wingers...

I was emphasising that the Conservatives are right-authoritarian. Because left-right is based solely on economics, it's most probably impossible to name 5 right-wing policies in the UK at all.

quote: I realize it makes people's lives easier if you brand right wingers all under the same scope of evil bastards, but it's a gross simplification and very wrong. I consider myself right wing, for example, and I'm all for legalization of marijuana, non-married couples adopting, gay marriage, etc. True right wingers are more of a "government should mind its own business and do what's best for the people". I'm all for low taxes and low government overhead, but I'm also all for public education, the option of public healthcare, and social welfare programs. Remember, right wing is not bad, but religious conservatives are very bad.

Yes, Asher the only reason you're a wierd right-liberal is because you're a rich bisexual

	16-12-2002 17:53									#38
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quote: True right wingers are more of a "government should mind its own business and do what's best for the people"

Whilst a left-winger would regard that as a contradiction in terms.

	16-12-2002 17:57									#39
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"I was emphasising that the Conservatives are right-authoritarian. Because left-right is based solely on economics, it's most probably impossible to name 5 right-wing policies in the UK at all."

Pro-lower taxes
Pro-private health care
Pro-car/anti-public transport subsidies
Pro-longer Sunday shopping hours
Pro-longer pub opening times

	16-12-2002 18:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's "I was emphasising that the Conservatives are right-authoritarian. Because left-right is based solely on economics, it's most probably impossible to name 5 right-wing policies in the UK at all." Pro-lower taxes Pro-private health care Pro-car/anti-public transport subsidies Pro-longer Sunday shopping hours Pro-longer pub opening times

How is being pro-longer pub opening times right-wing?

I'm not denying Tony Blair is right-wing, but the Tories are as well. And aren't the Tories for the rest of those policies anyway?

	16-12-2002 18:12									#41
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Blair is centre-left. Tories are centrist, moving towards the left in the vain hope of trying to catch some of the already voting. What they don't realise is that it is those who aren't regularly voting that would vote for them if they got their act together.

"How is being pro-longer pub opening times right-wing?"

More economic (and social) freedom, whereas left-wingers think they know how everyone should be living their lives.

	16-12-2002 18:17									#42
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Umm, I do hope you realise that being left or right-wing has absolutely nothing to with with social freedom, it's only about economics.

Social freedom is about being authoritarian or libertarian. The Tories are authoritarian and I think you'd have to be a complete imbecile to announce them left-wing.

	16-12-2002 18:18									#43
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Well, they aren't for scrapping the NHS, and that is a socialist policy.

	16-12-2002 18:21									#44
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They're for greater privatisation of it. That's a right-wing policy.

Besides, all they seem to do nowadays is say the opposite of what Labour does.

	16-12-2002 18:24									#45
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I agree; that's why I won't vote Tory! BTW, I would be more accurate than saying they do the opposite of what Labour does. They form their policy around Daily Mail's editoials.

Labour are a better right-wing party than the Tories are.

	16-12-2002 18:25									#46
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Hence the reason I'll be voting Liberal Democrat.

	16-12-2002 18:25									#47
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The UK has no proper right-wing though. That's why we see the BNP filling the void.

	16-12-2002 18:43									#48
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4 council seats in the midlands hardly counts as 'filling the void'.

your assesment is wrong, labour is centre-left, and certainly was more towards the centre when it came to power in '97. the tories though are right wing, not centrist, if they were in centre of british politics (which by definition is where most people are) then they would have won the last election! their main problem is that whilst under major they were centre-right, they're now just right. the only way they'll ever get back in to power is to have someone like ken clarke drag them kicking and screaming back into the centre.

	16-12-2002 18:47									#49
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If the Tories move left, they'll lose votes. The left is saturated. They just need to have decent policies and advertise them in the correct way (ie, before the Daily Mail).

	16-12-2002 18:49									#50
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Oh good god. The Tories and Labour are both way too right wing for me to feel comfortable with either of them being in power.

Raise taxes!! Make stuff public again, especially transport.

	16-12-2002 19:25									#52
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the tories don't need to become left-wing, but they do need to re-capture the centre ground from labour, the limits of a party that was 'right' rather than 'centre-right' were shown very clearly in 2001.

	16-12-2002 20:39									#53
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Suggest policies.

	16-12-2002 20:40									#54
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Plausible policies to reform public services without at the same time halving their funding

	16-12-2002 21:15									#55
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The Tories, if they want to be taken seriously, need to be right-liberal rather than right-authoritarian. The only way they'll lose they 'nasty party' image.

Still wouldn't vote for them but I wouldn't hate them as much.

	16-12-2002 22:01									#56
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They need to be extreme left liberal then I'd vote for them.

	16-12-2002 23:22									#57
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I agree, they are both right-wing in my eyes. There is no way you could define Labour policy as left wing, it is Thatcherism continued...

	16-12-2002 23:24									#58
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Is it bollocks! It's centre-left. Tories are centre. BNP are right-wing. The Tories need to become centre-right.

	16-12-2002 23:31									#59
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Yeah, but these are 'your' definitions

	16-12-2002 23:41									#60
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Absolutely.

Tories are authoritarian right to liberal center right mix (hence all the infighting), BNP are violent racist fascist thugs whose extreme authoritarian policies are born out of fear and cowardice, Labour leadership are center to center right, lib dems are center to center left liberals.