18-12-2002 21:13									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Yes, according to Interpol your country was the largest exporter of synthetic recreational drugs (Ecstasy, PCP, LSD, etc. ) in the world last year. What a truely enlightened policy.

You're putting the cart in front of the horse, Doc.

When the demand stays constant but the supply is tightened elsewhere, this is exactly what you will see. Hey, same deal with the Prohibition.

	18-12-2002 21:16									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Does the name Al Capone sound familiar? That's one of the arguments of the "Legalise Drugs" movement

I know, that's the point I was making. They were rhetorical questions.

	18-12-2002 21:36									#33
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quote: Some people would get on that train that is for sure, but don't they get there now? Maybe some more would, but exposing those on TV, and educating about it would have kids think twice before they do that. There would be legal way to help them if they want help, and not like now.

It seems you agree that drug use isn't healthy. Why make it legal and send that message that it's ok to do? It isn't a question of funding, we can fund the enforcement of drug laws and drug education if that's what we choose to do.

The US deficiency in education is something that almost everyone would agree on. Why rely soley on a system that is obviously broken when other methods are available. And there are legal drug treatment clinics. Legalizing the drugs involved are only going to increase their workload. I would support a 'step down' type program administered by a doctor. It doesn't require legalizing drugs, just legalizing them for prescription in such cases.

quote: And you are talking above about the effects of alchohol. I do not question that - however what are the effects of a war on alchohol.

In the long run I think they would be less than perpetually allowing the problem to exist. Short term, it would be a mess, from an enforcement perspective, and also an economic one. How much so would depend on the general support for such a ban.

In any case it isn't going to happen in the forseeable future. Alcohol is too ingrained into society from thousands of years of it being legal and being widespread in use, and the industry that has arisen to support and promote that use. Couple that with the 'lesson' we learned the first time... it just isn't going to happen even though it should.

Most other drugs haven't had much influence in comparison. The only one that comes close is nicotine.

quote: The most important part is education. Educate don't ban.

I agree with the education part. I don't think that the problems with enforcement warrant making drug use legal though. I'm sure we can agree that murder shouldn't be made legal, and only rely on education to show people that murder is wrong. Legalizing murder (which would just be 'killing' such a case) would decrease crime, but increase non-consentual death. Sure there is collateral damage from apprehending murder suspects, time, money, even lives. But it's better to keep it illegal.

Some things are just too dangerous to allow to have free reign in society, and it's up to society to decide where to draw those lines. I think drugs certainly are too dangerous to be freely distributed, you disagree, that's fine. Overall consensus as shown in voting in the US is still that they should remain illegal.

	18-12-2002 21:40									#34
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Point is, drugs are self harm. Murder harms others. Drug illegality causes crime that hurts others.

	18-12-2002 21:53									#35
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I was talking about effects on society MikeH.

I really don't care that much if someone decides to destroy their life (given the proper knowlege that that is what they are doing) intentionally. But I do care if they decide to take a course of action which will negatively affect the lives of those around them. When you take drugs (at least certain drugs), it's not much different than randomly shooting bullets around. Sure you might not hit anyone, but you're drastically increasing your chances that you will over not shooting at all. On a personal level, that is the analogy I would make.

	18-12-2002 21:56									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Absolutely hilarious, because Singapore is also one of the more socialist states around. Welcome to the left, Fez.

I thought Socialist states have weak court systems?

And if that is so explain the economic growth Singapore has. You can only get that in a capitalist free market state. Singapore isn't socialist.

From CIA Factbook:

quote: Singapore, a highly developed and successful free-market economy, enjoys a remarkably open and corruption-free environment, stable prices, and one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world. The economy depends heavily on exports, particularly in electronics and manufacturing, and was hard hit in 2001 by the global recession and the slump in the technology sector. In 2001, GDP contracted by 2.2%. The economy is expected to recover in 2002 in response to improvements in the US economy, and GDP growth for 2002 is projected to be 3% to 4%. In the longer term the government hopes to establish a new growth path that will be less vulnerable to the external business cycle than the current export-led model, but is unlikely to abandon efforts to establish Singapore as Southeast Asia's financial and high-tech hub.

Welcome to the world of the right wing, Kontiki.

	18-12-2002 21:56									#37
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There is no way to stop people taking drugs.

The only debate is how to help the addicts.

	18-12-2002 21:57									#38
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Well fair is fair ...

I just say... apart from many of Bezerkes points, look at the Dutch. Their society has not collapsed although many drugs are legal.

Anyway on the murder part - you actually do something against someone else, noone gets prosecuted if he or she willingly cut his own finger. However war on drugs gets you prosecuded if you did this to yourself. That is from moral and "danger" perspective for me. You are not danger to society you are a danger to yourself. Of course driving while drugged should be a serious offense... and similar.

Furthermore if drugs were made legal illegal distributors should still be prosecuted or someone who was found to encourage youngsters and such. However by legalization those activities would become unprofitable.

There is always a tradeoff. For me it seems very logical to trade the "drugs war" innocents killed/ billions spent/ gangsters and crime created etc... for more people who would get themselves into this, as they could even though they were informed (we could afford to inform them as tobbaco is pretty well known to be dangerous today), but it was their choice afterall. Not that they harmed the others. (Situations where they can harm the others should be prevented like driving and similar, but it is no different than alchohol).

And I guess we could agree that light drugs ban like pot really has no sense. I think the latest is that it is three times more likely than cigarettes to cause various cancers, but that is about it. Does this warrant a "war" on the particular substance?

Just the last - yes the decision made is by society - however society is made to making standards by the few who influence it, not really by thinking the issues trough. You and I coudl at least in theory influence them the right way one day . Or at least know why we think on the issue what we think about. Which we do (even though we disagree) .

	18-12-2002 21:57									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Hmm, also forgot to mention that Singapore has strict laws against gay sex.

And?

	18-12-2002 22:08									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Oh, this has nothing to do with enforcement or anything like that, I'm just enjoying the fact that Fez said that Singapore law was the basis for his entire beliefs system when it seems a good chunk of Singapore law goes against what he purports to believe.

Why don't you just come out and say I am a fag? Really what does that have to do anything with it?

I specifically brought up sentences about drug related crimes in Singapore. They are punishable by death. Now let me tell you something: Does this have anything to do with another social issue? Absolutely not.

Yes I believe a model of the Singaporean law system against drugs should be established in all developed nations.

	18-12-2002 22:11									#41
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quote: I just say... apart from many of Bezerkes points, look at the Dutch. Their society has not collapsed although many drugs are legal.

Which drugs are illegal? Obviously there are more dangerous drugs than others, the question is where to draw the line. I'm not familiar on Dutch law, but from your statement even they seem to know that not all drugs should be made legal.

quote: Of course driving while drugged should be a serious offense... and similar.

Add in being a parent and I'd support several of the illegal drugs becoming legalized. Of course the enforcement issue is still the same.

quote: However by legalization those activities would become unprofitable.

Like alcohol and tobacco production is unprofitable?

quote: (Situations where they can harm the others should be prevented like driving and similar, but it is no different than alchohol).

Only these situations would become more frequent.

quote: And I guess we could agree that light drugs ban like pot really has no sense. I think the latest is that it is three times more likely than cigarettes to cause various cancers, but that is about it. Does this warrant a "war" on the particular substance?

I don't think there really is a problem with legalizing pot use, in the context of a society which already allows tobacco and alcohol use. In this case, it might even be beneficial as it sends a clearer signal to our youth, that legal drugs are safer than illegal drugs.

	18-12-2002 22:18									#42
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BTW, may I add something else to this little discussion... if you tax marijuana if it were legal... criminals would find a business in evading those taxes. Take tobacco for example. The mafia is known for selling cigarettes for cheap without tax stamps. Go figure! Legalisation might do more harm than good.

	18-12-2002 22:21									#43
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quote: 2b) The 2nd Amendment guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms, but not for drug users, or even people who use prescription drugs assigned to others. Yup, if you own a gun and use a prescription painkiller belonging to someone else, you're a criminal subject to a very harsh sentence.

I don't get the 2nd amendment claim. It seems like you are reaching quite a bit with this one in order to get all of the first 10 in.

	18-12-2002 22:21									#44
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Just to clarify this drug war business. It is an easily observable fact that the main profit from drugs comes from distribution, not production or trafficking. Hence, capos like Escobar, Caro Quintero, etc. are really the "medium fish" in the game. The big fish are the capos of LA, Chicago, Ny, etc. Why do we never hear about them?
And the US still has the gall to certify countries? Well, I can tell you, this is not because of any advantage point in the war against drugs... The two past presidents of the US admitted to trying drugs.. hint, hint.

	18-12-2002 22:24									#45
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quote: Originally posted by El Leon Why do we never hear about them?

Because you refuse to watch the news?

	18-12-2002 22:30									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Alcohol is too ingrained into society from thousands of years of it being legal and being widespread in use, and the industry that has arisen to support and promote that use. Couple that with the 'lesson' we learned the first time... it just isn't going to happen even though it should. Most other drugs haven't had much influence in comparison. The only one that comes close is nicotine.

Thujone: In Europe since middle ages
Amanita mushrooms: Traditionally throughout the northern hemisphere for unknown period of time.
Cacti: First traces in Peru around 1300 BC.
Caffeine: Possibly since stone age, surely since 850 AD.
Cannabis: Since 6000 BC.
Opium: Since 1300 BC.
DMT: Since late 8th century.
Kava: Traditionally throughout Polynesia for unknown period of time.

Etc etc etc... I could go on and on.
The thing is, that alcohol used to be predominant only in western societies... and it's quite sad to see how it's so often being portrayed as the "morally pure" drug. There's no real reason to assume that a society based on ethyl alcohol as the main drug would be any more stable or "good" than a society based on Heroin, LSD, Psilocybine or THC.

	18-12-2002 22:35									#47
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quote: Which drugs are illegal? Obviously there are more dangerous drugs than others, the question is where to draw the line. I'm not familiar on Dutch law, but from your statement even they seem to know that not all drugs should be made legal.

here is on elink describing the state of drug laws and enforcement in Holland
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/MISC/nethnorm.htm

a quote from there

quote: The juridical formulation is, of course, much more complicated, but practically speaking, the use of cannabis products has been legalized; every town has at least one "hash and coffee shop", and the possession of less than 30 grams is not prosecuted by the police. In spite of this liberalization of use of soft drugs, traff cking in cannabis products is still forbidden. Besides the possession of hash, the possession by addicts of a 'usersamount' (an amount less than ½ a gram heroin, cocaine or morphine) has been permitted.

quote: Add in being a parent and I'd support several of the illegal drugs becoming legalized. Of course the enforcement issue is still the same.

hey I am a parent of a 3yo girl

quote: quote: However by legalization those activities would become unprofitable. Like alcohol and tobacco production is unprofitable?

No, you misunderstood me, the activities as "illegal selling" or trafficking, there would be legal institutions (or whatever is organised, I would prefer it at the moment being controlled by the state ) selling drugs and paying taxes.

quote: Only these situations would become more frequent.

I agree but there is always a trade-off. Think about a number of innocents being killed in present drugs war, and other side effects it has.

quote: And I guess we could agree that light drugs ban like pot really has no sense. I think the latest is that it is three times more likely than cigarettes to cause various cancers, but that is about it. Does this warrant a "war" on the particular substance? I don't think there really is a problem with legalizing pot use, in the context of a society which already allows tobacco and alcohol use. In this case, it might even be beneficial as it sends a clearer signal to our youth, that legal drugs are safer than illegal drugs.

	18-12-2002 22:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson quote: I just say... apart from many of Bezerkes points, look at the Dutch. Their society has not collapsed although many drugs are legal. Which drugs are illegal? Obviously there are more dangerous drugs than others, the question is where to draw the line. I'm not familiar on Dutch law, but from your statement even they seem to know that not all drugs should be made legal.

In holland soft drugs laws (weed, hash, etc) are like alcohol laws in england or france. Hard drugs (lsd, crack, cociane, heroin, pcp, xtc, speed) are all cracked down on hard and addicts are stuffed into rehab and given free clean needles. because everyone can do soft drugs, it's no big deal, kids don't get hooked on it to be "cool", and fewer people go to hard drugs. Only xtc is a bit of a problem because of its easy access, concealibility, price etc. The biggest problem with xtc is that you have no idea that the product is good before it's too late, and xtc pills can be laced with all sorts of nasty sh!t.

	18-12-2002 22:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You're putting the cart in front of the horse, Doc. When the demand stays constant but the supply is tightened elsewhere, this is exactly what you will see. Hey, same deal with the Prohibition.

You missed my point. My point was, same deal with The Opium Wars between Great Britain and China in the 19th century. Another point is that the drug scene in the Netherlands is not quite so cool nor as under control as we would be led to believe. The goverment of the Netherlands has drug cartels operating within their country and they're unable to control them. This exposes the bankruptcy of their liberal drug policies.

	18-12-2002 22:43									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Fez BTW, may I add something else to this little discussion... if you tax marijuana if it were legal... criminals would find a business in evading those taxes. Take tobacco for example. The mafia is known for selling cigarettes for cheap without tax stamps. Go figure! Legalisation might do more harm than good.

True. A few years ao Canada tried putting an extremely high tax on cigarettes. A cigarette smuggling industry quickly developed. There were even running gun battles on the Great Lakes between Canadian police and smugglers. Eventually the Canadians were forced to cut back the tax.

	18-12-2002 22:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone In holland soft drugs laws (weed, hash, etc) are like alcohol laws in england or france. Hard drugs (lsd, crack, cociane, heroin, pcp, xtc, speed) are all cracked down on hard and addicts are stuffed into rehab and given free clean needles. because everyone can do soft drugs, it's no big deal, kids don't get hooked on it to be "cool", and fewer people go to hard drugs. Only xtc is a bit of a problem because of its easy access, concealibility, price etc. The biggest problem with xtc is that you have no idea that the product is good before it's too late, and xtc pills can be laced with all sorts of nasty sh!t.

Because your nation has made itself known as being sympathetic and/or lenient towards drug use it has become a main manufacturing center for many of these hard drugs. Smooth. You're such a good neighbor.

	18-12-2002 22:46									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove True. A few years ao Canada tried putting an extremely high tax on cigarettes. A cigarette smuggling industry quickly developed. There were even running gun battles on the Great Lakes between Canadian police and smugglers. Eventually the Canadians were forced to cut back the tax.

So that is the problem... overtaxing is not a good idea. So then legalize it and make it very cheap for everybody to get is not a good idea either.

Even here in Argentina, the Border Place interdicts thousands and thousands of cigarettes that have no tax stamps.

	18-12-2002 22:46									#53
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Anodyne -

The point I was making is that in the US, making alcohol illegal would be a significantly more difficult law to enforce. The % of the population which uses alcohol is obviously much higher than any of those other drugs you mentioned.

	18-12-2002 22:52									#54
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Well, the positive thing about legalizing marijuana would be, that users / home growers would be no more classified as criminals in the eyes of the society (which is quite absurd since they never cause any damage to the common obedience to the law), but rather as normal people who they are.

I don't really see a difference between an alcoholist and a heroin-addict. No substance is any worse than another, and any substance can totally fuck you up. Control is needed in everything. And if you don't want to mix your mind up with a strong solvent like ethanol, but rather explore your consciousness with psychedelics - doing harm to no one in the process (everyone knows how drunken morons roam the streets, acting violent etc... this kind of behavior is hardly ever connected with psychedelics - why to commit crimes when you've seen the paradise?), you're labelled as a menace to the society. That's absurd, perverse and morally decadent.

	18-12-2002 22:52									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson The % of the population which uses alcohol is obviously much higher than any of those other drugs you mentioned.

Weren't before the Europeans came.

	18-12-2002 22:54									#56
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I think Bezerker makes some very good arguments, and I agree with him that the 'refudiation' in this thread have been minimal, and have not engaged him on an equal par (and everyone here know I am no Libertarian)

On the issue of legalization and cost: I think this is an issue of individual getting the whole picture as to cost. For example, I think high taxes on tobacco are justified simply because of the high price the state pays for talking care of Tobacco users in terms of medical expenses. If people want low or no taxes on cigarettes, then the state needs to find a way to shift the health care burden of their care to them, and not to anyone else. Same with all other laws meant to 'protect' you fro yourself: if you don't care for the state to tell you how to live, you should not expect the state to help you once you have screwed up.

For example: seatbelt laws: I say we should modify them. Individul who whish to ignore them should go ahead and do so: they can get a free sticker at the DMV to put on their car stating "I don't care for seatbelts". Everyone else also gets a free sticker stating they do acept the law (not having either sticker would lead to a fine..its free, so get it you bums!) Then, the police would not stop them if they saw them not wearing one. The flip side is, that if you get into a car accident, the state does not bears any liability as far as trying to get you to a hospital for emergency care if you happen to suffer severe injusires because you had no seatbelt. That would be called taking responsibility for your choice.

	18-12-2002 22:55									#57
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave hey I am a parent of a 3yo girl

Sorry then, no drugs for you!

quote: No, you misunderstood me, the activities as "illegal selling" or trafficking, there would be legal institutions (or whatever is organised, I would prefer it at the moment being controlled by the state ) selling drugs and paying taxes.

Ok. The current traffickers aren't going to pay taxes either way though. Having it state run may be a good idea, although I doubt our government's ability to compete pricewise with the black market trade that would develope.

	18-12-2002 23:00									#58
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quote: Weren't before the Europeans came.

There also wasn't a US before they came. When enforcing a law among a population, I'm sure you can see why the current population would need to be the one accounted for. Last I heard, the 'dead for centuries' crime rate was insignificant except in horror films.

	18-12-2002 23:01									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GePap On the issue of legalization and cost: I think this is an issue of individual getting the whole picture as to cost. For example, I think high taxes on tobacco are justified simply because of the high price the state pays for talking care of Tobacco users in terms of medical expenses. If people want low or no taxes on cigarettes, then the state needs to find a way to shift the health care burden of their care to them, and not to anyone else.

I wonder if the SS money saved from smokers dying early covers the medical expenses?

	18-12-2002 23:05									#60
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Fez, you're amazingly dense. You said Singapore laws were the basis of your entire belief system. I have just pointed out that either that was a lie, or you've been lying to us about what you believe. I'd presume the former. I could personally care less if you are gay, bi, straight, into beastiality or licking toads - the fact is, the Singapore law that you love so much goes directly against that which you say you are.

As for your other comments:
- your comment about socialist states having weak court systems has been pulled out of your ass.
- socialism does not preclude free-market activity. Open your eyes and take a look at, say, Sweden, France, Canada, China, New Zealand....all "socialist" to varying degrees (socialism does not equal communism). Singapore also has one of the best social housing and health care systems in the world (very leftist notions), the government gets very involved in economy, hell, the government even considers itself democratic socialist party. If you knew anything about Singapore other than what the CIA world factbook tells you, you would know that Singapore worked under the notion of a "social contract" whereby the government would provide meaningful jobs in return for continued support.
http://www.littlespeck.com/content/...my-011020.html. You could also check out http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/co...2-88144,00.html for a little background on the ruling PAP. Or look up Temasek Holdings, the company that manages the government's investments. In April 2000, government controlled companies represented 25% of the market cap on Singapore's stock exchage including the three largest companies, top five by turnover and top four by total assets.
file:///C:/WINDOWS/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/Content.IE5/C1U3WPMN/260,7,OVERVIEW OF PRIVATISATION IN SINGAPORE


Basically, Singapore has always been a left-of-center state, it just looked a little different than other models. if you really like the Singapore model, you're liking *gasp* leftist and socialist ideals.