19-12-2002 23:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Yep. Has Canada settled with theirs?

Yeah, but not very long ago.

Only took about 50 years.

	19-12-2002 23:51									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Edan I don't think that quite applies. The INS are targeting people whom they know are illegal immigrants and who they can locate and arrest - it just happens that thanks to the latest efforts, they happen to locate a lot more Middle Eastern illegal immigrants than other nationalities. And from what I can tell, they are treating these illegal immigrants the same way they have treated other illegal immigrants.

That's not the case. INS ordered all foreign nationals from Middle Eastern nations (the specified which countries applied) to report for fingerprinting, getting DNA samples, etc. When the people reported in good faith, they arrested droves of them. No other nationalities were asked to come forward, no other were arrested. It specifically targeted Arab/Middle Eastern/Muslim people.

And they are not treating them the same, as che pointed out. There is normally a grace period given to people whose visas/green cards have been held up by government delays, not outright arrest.

	19-12-2002 23:51									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov They are legal immigrants who are not charged with any crime. .

Liar.
from the article that you quoted:
"INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes"

	19-12-2002 23:52									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Liar. from the article that you quoted: "INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes"

We already discussed this, so you can suck my Lefty nut.

	19-12-2002 23:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That's not the case. INS ordered all foreign nationals from Middle Eastern nations (the specified which countries applied) to report for fingerprinting, getting DNA samples, etc.

Yes, and this was a bad decision for the Justice Department to make, and will certainly impair relations between the government and the community of middle eastern immigrants, but it is not illegal under the constitution.

quote: When the people reported in good faith, they arrested droves of them.

Only those that were illegal immigrants, from what I can tell.

quote: No other nationalities were asked to come forward, no other were arrested.

Well, they didn't have the location of illegal immigrants of other nationalities in order to arrest them.

If someone showed up at the INS and hands them a list of addresses for 100 illegal immigrnts, and they're all of nationality or race X, should they wait untile they have an equal number of address for Y and Z before they start their arrests?

quote: And they are not treating them the same, as che pointed out. There is normally a grace period given to people whose visas/green cards have been held up by government delays, not outright arrest.

And after the government investigates the claims and they are borne out, they should be released.

	20-12-2002 00:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Only those that were illegal immigrants, from what I can tell.

I don't see how someone coming here legally and then being caught up in a government delay for approval of their visa extension or green card is grounds to suddenly consider him an illegal immigrant

quote: Well, they didn't have the location of illegal immigrants of other nationalities in order to arrest them.

Uh, that's because they didn't ASK any other nationalities to report. It was a singling out of Middle Eastern men. They aren't looking for anyone else!

quote: If someone showed up at the INS and hands them a list of addresses for 100 illegal immigrnts, and they're all of nationality or race X, should they wait untile they have an equal number of address for Y and Z before they start their arrests?

This is a lot different than asking immigrants to report in good faith to register with INS and then suddenly arresting them.

quote: And after the government investigates the claims and they are borne out, they should be released.

Alas, many Muslim men detained after 9/11 here in New York have yet to be released, or even charged with a crime. The sit and rot in jails, not even able to see their families. A good friend of mine is working with a charity trying to get basic things and letters to them, but without much success.

I don't have much hope for these men, either. I think their detentions will be "indefinite."

	20-12-2002 00:14									#37
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Isn't this a good thing? I mean we know that most terrorists are muslims.

This reminds me of a film. Can't remember the title, but it was American from 199X and about all male muslims in New York (I think) being rounded up because of some terrorists.

	20-12-2002 00:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't see how someone coming here legally and then being caught up in a government delay for approval of their visa extension or green card is grounds to suddenly consider him an illegal immigrant

Simple. In order to be a legal immigrant, you must have an up-to-date visa or green card. If it's epired (even if at no fault of your own) you are no longer a legal immigrant. Should those people stay imprisoned if it was the government's fault? No, as I said before, they should be released (either with up-to-date documents, or to their country of origin) once it has been verified. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be arrested until it can be verified.

quote: Uh, that's because they didn't ASK any other nationalities to report. It was a singling out of Middle Eastern men. They aren't looking for anyone else!

And that was a bad judgement on whoevver mde that decision, but is hardly illegal.

quote: This is a lot different than asking immigrants to report in good faith to register with INS and then suddenly arresting them.

When the INS called for registering immigrants, did they say "if you've commited a crime, we won't arrest you/give you clemnancy/whatever"? I seriously doubt it.

quote: Alas, many Muslim men detained after 9/11 here in New York have yet to be released, or even charged with a crime. The sit and rot in jails, not even able to see their families.

My understanding was that they were all charged with immigration (or other) charges, and that only a handful of them are still imprisioned (and those are individuals with chargs more serious than simple immigration charges) with the rest either deported or released.

Do you have any source for your claims that many are still in jail not charged with crimes?

	20-12-2002 00:21									#39
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Six detainees still detained

Many?

	20-12-2002 00:23									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Six detainees still detained Many?

I hadn't spoken about this with my friend in a couple of months.

Regardless, most were detained in excess of 9 months, without charges, which certainly is, IMO, a violation of rights.

	20-12-2002 00:26									#41
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The seletive enforment is a matter of prioritizing limited rescources. They are geoing to get around to all the expired visa and immigration violations eventually. But for security puposes during a war, they first concetrated on the citzens of the countries where most of the terrorist war opponents have come from. Saudi Arabia was screeming bloody murder some months ago at extra attention their citizens were getting. But it will be every illegal immigrant's turn sooner or later. The terroist attack has completed killed any political chance for immagration amensty for years to come. Bush had to drop all such talks with Fox.

	20-12-2002 00:40									#42
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quote: They aren't citizens, so don't have certain rights that citizens have.

Indefinite detention [against non-citizens] has been declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS early in 2001. The Patriot Act is unconstitutional. Unless these people are released/deported/charged soon, what is happening is illegal. And even if it were not illegal, it is certainly supremely immoral.

	20-12-2002 01:18									#43
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This reminds me of a film. Can't remember the title, but it was American from 199X and about all male muslims in New York (I think) being rounded up because of some terrorists.


I believe it was "The Siege".

	20-12-2002 02:08									#44
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"When the people reported in good faith, they arrested droves of them"

I agree that it's totally hamfisted. This compounded on the fact that we're just making up for past incompetency in the INS.

However, as has been pointed out, it's totally legal and, in some cases, likely is warranted.

	20-12-2002 02:14									#45
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quote: I believe it was "The Siege".

Yes sir! That's it.

Not a great movie IMO, but perhaps more interesting in these post-9/11 times.

	20-12-2002 03:07									#46
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If a Black man is spotted comitting a crime, the cops are not going to look for White women. Likewise, if a Carrot-top irishmen like myself was also spotted comitting a crime, the cops are going to look for a Carrottop Irishmen, not a Black man.

Uh, no crime has been committed.